I'm really concerned I have a whining habit starting - I'm a bit devastated about it. I'm working really hard on it, but notice it more and more everyday. Charlie never used to whine much. As soon as I heard some, I raised it with my gundog trainer, and we put him in a situation that I was worried about (watching another dog retrieve) so she could see. At that time, she said it was just a bit of frustration, was very mild, and the programme of obedience and training steadiness was the best thing to do. She also recommended a sharp poke in the ribs with stiff fingers if he whined, but I never did that. I'm not capable of poking him hard enough for him to notice it. Now Charlie is back home, of course he is still frustrated at the constant confinement, the whining is appearing in all sorts of situations. I've posted about the car. Yesterday we had whining when he couldn't get to another dog. And late last night a squeak because he couldn't get to OH who was cutting up a chicken. I know some people will be thinking "that doesn't sound too bad" but it honestly seems to be getting a little worse everyday, and I am worried this is going to grow into a problem. I'm super keen to go to a group gundog class, and I'm terrified of being thrown out because I have a noisy chocolate show lab! I've always been super careful about no rewards for whining. And we honestly had nearly nothing (apart from the incident that I raised with the gundog trainer, as above). What can I do? Anything? Or is this just a cost of the injury, and recovery frustration, and it's just tough luck? I don't want to go shooting, or enter competitions, just go to classes!
Re: Whining Hi Julie, Sorry Im not going to be much help, but remember that whining can also be excitement, Otis does this a fair bit, as he also wags his tail ! xx
Re: Whining Yes, it could be excitement - although it seems frustration, waiting for something, or prevented from getting to something.
Re: Whining I should say - my main effort at stopping this is to step up patience exercises. Which has been a lot of sitting down and waiting. We haven't had a problem here. I have got him to settle, and yesterday stay settled as the three legged collie went by, and the day before watched a duck fight (lots of flapping) calmly. It's happened when we are on the move and meet other dogs, and also the kids' football incident (ball kicked into us, which he then couldn't play with).
Re: Whining Two issues here: A) Will Charlie whining get him banned from a gundog group? B) How to stop him whining For A) I think it depends on the gundog group! I mean, yes, we know whining in the shooting field is a cardinal sin, but as you say, you don't really have aspirations of Charlie working driven shoots or becoming a FTCh. My gundog group is pretty cheap, cheerful and inclusive, and we have some VERY noisy dogs (including a Vizla who keeps up a constant commentary!) So although some trainers may be snippy about it, I think there's a good chance of finding some who will see the issue as a work-in-progress and not ban you from taking part for the odd squeak. B) Wish I had a magic wand for this one, as I fear we're heading the same way! We've gone from a dog who never whined at 6 months, to an increasing tendency to comment on her frustration or displeasure! Absolute classic a few weeks ago was when OH brought her to watch my daughter and me at our riding lesson. Now Merla knows about horses, and people on horses, but was utterly amazed at seeing me all the way up there, and apparently wanted to come up too! I had to ask him to take her out, as it wasn't making Prelim 4 dressage any easier!! Mortified : OK, that's not helpful though. Thinking objectively, can you tell when Charlie's about to whine? Merla does this particular sort of ants-in-her-pants wriggle that is an early warning sign. I'm inclined to think that the trick in a class situation may be getting in there in the early warning stages with a really good distraction for whatever is causing the frustration. What do you think?
Re: Whining Some observations on whining. Whining is very common. On shoots and in classes. You are unlikely to be thrown out of a gundog class because of it, though others may find it annoying and there is a fear (maybe unfounded) that it is catching. Whining often appears towards the end of the first year in a dog reaching full maturity. Even though that dog may have been relatively quiet as a puppy. Whining in training or at work is almost always associated with excitement and is likely to be worse if the dog is frustrated (ie watching others retrieve or during swimming) Established whining is also considered almost impossible to cure. So many gundog trainers will try and nip it in the bud very early on with aversives (a slap or a poke). This sometimes works, and sometimes does not. I have never cured an established whiner. I don’t know anyone else that has either. That is not to say it is impossible. Because it is a fault in competition, and annoying in the field, many serious gundog trainers will rehome a chronic whiner. Preventing established whining There are some strategies that may prevent whining getting established [li]Reward silence[/li] [li]Avoid triggers[/li] [li]Punish noise[/li] [li]Introduce exciting environments slow and late[/li] With regard to rewarding silence, it sounds as though you may already be doing everything you can. But with avoiding triggers, there might be scope for improvement. For example. If a dog whines whilst food is prepared, I don’t let them see food being prepared. Even if that is difficult or inconvenient to arrange. Whether or not to punish is a personal decision. A short sharp fierce NO will stop some dogs long enough for you to then distract and reward them for quiet. As you don’t intend to work on shoots the following won’t apply but others might be interested. Slow and late Most of the really bad whiners I have met, have been introduced to the shooting field, or competitive retrieving at a young age. Often at less than a year old. Nowadays, I introduce my dogs slow and late. Many of my dogs will be over two years old before they are working regularly on shoots. I believe this policy has had a significant effect on avoiding whining (which I personally loath). There is a genetic element to whining, simply because it is an eliminating fault in field trials. However, the environmental contribution is significant, and it is very easy to turn a well bred working dog in to a gibbering whining wreck by inadvertently exposing the dog to situations with which it cannot cope. Julie, I think you need to do what you can, and then stop worrying. It is quite likely that Charlie’s whining is pre-destined as a part of his temperament and nothing to do with the experiences that you have both been through. I doubt if you will be removed from a class because of it. And I doubt if you will be the only member of a class with a dog that whines. In addition, your trainer should be able to give you some good tips and advice for reducing Charlie’s excitement and frustration levels, something that is much easier after observing the dog in person. And will help you ensure that the whining does not escalate. Sorry if that seems a bit negative overall. It is not an easy problem to address, but I genuinely don't think it should be a huge issue for you and Charlie.
Re: Whining Pippa, thank you so much - that's really helpful. It does sound a bit of a dim outlook. :-\. But I'm determined that I'm not going to have a dog that whines, I'm just not - if I have to throw every waking hour at this.... Ok, more realistically, if I do, it's not going to be because I haven't done absolutely everything I can. Right, off to draw up a plan. Plus, I wasn't going to take him back to a trainer until after he could be off lead, but if his x-rays are ok on Thursday, I'll book some 121 lessons and explain we just have to stay on lead but I want help with the excitement and frustration.
Re: Whining We have a whiner in both of the classes we go to, and while it is annoying for the others it definitely doesn't mean the dogs get excluded! I mean, they are at the classes to improve, right, so what would be the good of not allowing them to take part! On the very odd occasion that Pops make a whine, I say 'NO' firmly, and turn around and walk her away from the action, so she gets the idea that not only do I seriously not approve, it actually has the opposite effect to the one she wants! I know your situation is different Julie, but once you do start training, I think that is quite an effective strategy. Poor old Charlie, he is very cooped up and he is by nature a lively and very energetic fellow. Not surprising he is getting a bit frustrated…
Re: Whining Thanks Karen, that's comforting. My ambitions are very modest. Even though, I think it's important I don't give in, and accept it's envitable that I need to suffer the rolling eyes and she'll-know-to-buy-a-black-working-one-next-time looks! Have emailed a new trainer, that's a bit easier for me to get to, so I'll see whether I can get some help training around the difficult distractions that might make him whine.
Re: Whining Have you ever thought of showing him, in addition to gun dog training? He's so beautiful…
Re: Whining Only in the Wimbledon waggiest tail competition - I reckon we'll wipe the floor with the competition. His tail is too feathery, he has a conformation fault in the angle of his front feet, he is not short coupled, his lower eyelids are just a tad too loose, and his stifles not turned enough (though they would look better when the muscle returns). His breast bone is too flat, and chest too narrow. But I love him to bits and think he is the most beautiful dog in the world!
Re: Whining I can only repeat what others have already said. For you personally I don't see it as a huge problem. You don't want to work nor compete with Charlie. I agree with Pippa that it is very unlikely to get you chucked out of a gundog training class. Even my goody two shoes Caddie can have a tiny bit of noise in her in one particular situation. It is minimal and doesn't matter one iota on a normal shoot day. I know what triggers it and I know how to handle her to avoid it which has made it possible to compete with her in working tests even in open stakes. But I can't cure it. I don't believe there is a cure. I doubt she even knows that she is doing it. If it does happen in class it is important not to get stressed out, that will make it worse. Just quietly walk him away for a few minutes.
Re: Whining Interesting thread. I have been involved on a few shoots when dogs have been whining, only once was the owner spoken to (but in that shoot beaters weren't aloud to speak to the guns!!) I think it is when a dog is waiting for something to happen that it thinks will be exciting, so a mix of frustration and preemptive excitement. Widgeon does like a whine but it's only first thing in the morning before I'm up or when I get home from work and am getting changed I.e an in the house but not playing with or feeding him, again pre-emotive excitement?? I have tried ignoring him till he's quiet, c&t quiet, shouting NO even water squirting. Nothing seems to make any difference, people have said as he gets older he'll stop,???? I know a chap with a choc lad who whines when he knows a retrieve is immanent, he's great on the foreshore as he hears/sees or smells birds long before we do, just like an alarm clock!!! I know Charlie is still quite young, will be interesting to see if it reduces with age??
Re: Whining I don't like to say it Julie but welcome to my world. Scott is the king of whining. He has always whined from day one. He whines if excited, frustrated, if he wants something, for attention and probably more. Scout has never whined as much. He usually has to be very frustrated to whine. My advice would be use Rachael's tips to train a quiet cue. I know you didn't want to when it was just a little whinge in the car but it works like magic. Now if Scott starts to whine for whatever reason I say quiet and he is. ;D. Ive tried all sorts nothing else has worked.
Re: Whining I introduced Lady to shooting when she was 2 yrs and 3 mths old. I started her picking up at 3 yrs and 2 months. Once she'd associated standing in the middle of a field behind a line of guns with picking up birds she went through a phase of whining through shear excitement and I though it was going to be a big problem. I got it under a form of control by walking her round behind me and then making her lie down as a distraction which helped but didn't stop it completely. However, her second season picking up has come and gone and she's now settled quite nicely and the whining has (pretty much) stopped, so maybe just getting older, more mature, and used to the excitement of it all helps on the whining front too.
Re: Whining Lilly gives the odd "appropriate" whine ro attract our attention, for example to get back in the house after a loo trip. But....at training she is an awful whiner. We haven't been for a good while as we have been busy but she will give a constant barrage of whines if having to sit and wait her turn : Not quite worked out how to tackle it. Hopefully we will get back soon and work out our options. You have my sympathies too
Re: Whining [quote author=Jen link=topic=5421.msg68342#msg68342 date=1397574498] My advice would be use Rachael's tips to train a quiet cue. I know you didn't want to when it was just a little whinge in the car but it works like magic. Now if Scott starts to whine for whatever reason I say quiet and he is. ;D. Ive tried all sorts nothing else has worked. [/quote] You really might be right, and it's true I'm resisting this as an idea - I am rebelling at creating the whining to put it on cue, and although there is enough of it to be worried, it's not yet a predictable day to day thing. I may be in a state of denial! That does happen with me sometimes. I just still think (hope) a wider strategy of management around triggers might work (there is just no way I'm going to engineer an out of control lunge to another dog so I can put whining on cue - not when I'm working so hard on control). For sure, a trip to a trainer is next on my agenda. I'll report back.
Re: Whining I didn't create the whining or set anything up I waited to capture it a bit like you capture any clicker trained behaviour, gave it a cue then captured the quiet bit and gave that a cue. It's like clicker training anything. Also if you think about it when you put a cue to a behaviour you can then control that behaviour. Sorry I'll shut up now I know you don't want to go down that route I was just trying to explain what I did sorry.
Re: Whining Well JulieT, I have a working, highly talented, stylish Black Lab and he whines ;D So it isn't just the Chocolate ones. I was in one class and told to move away as I was winding up her dog :-[ At another class there was a yellow Lab who was so noisy, it shut mine up, so I don't think it is catching! Fortunately my second Lab doesn't whine at all and number one is getting better with age. So give gundog lessons a go
Re: Whining [quote author=Jen link=topic=5421.msg68419#msg68419 date=1397592915] Sorry I'll shut up now I know you don't want to go down that route I was just trying to explain what I did sorry. [/quote] Jen, I value your advice hugely, you never fail to make a positive suggestion and when I see a post from you I think "oh good, Jen has replied". Hope I'm not making you blush! So don't shut up, never, please! Thank you Stacia! You always make me feel better. I'm defensive about my choc boy doing gun dog stuff, when I see a black working lab behaving appallingly badly (and it is not uncommon) people seems to blame the handler (or themselves, as appropriate, the dog is always amazing) - if it's a chocolate they blame the dog! I'm not sure that's right at all. So thank you. [quote author=Stacia link=topic=5421.msg68425#msg68425 date=1397593784] . So give gundog lessons a go [/quote] Hmm...I didn't get a great response to my enquiries today (with details of where I'm at). I got offers of very standard "basic heel work (on and off lead), recall, retrieving, memories, use of a whistle and hunting an area". I need something much more bespoke in my situation (can't even go off lead). So I'm still searching...
