Day 5 and Charlie is too confident, he doesn't know the meaning of staying in the comfort zone. I have no sooner taken his lead off and he's through into a field, however he comes back within about 30 seconds after one/two verbal commands, difficult to time when I am panicking! :-\ Not interested in Hattie or anything else come to that, even the gambling with treats appears to have little effect on him. The question is am I going to have to settle for this and hope that when the Total Recall is complete that he turns on a sixpence when I blow my whistle? If I put him back on lead he is not getting any experience of recalling. Helen x :'( Sorry to be gloomy AGAIN just want some continuity - fat chance! Helen x
Re: Why oh Why How do you go about trying to keep him in the comfort zone? At the moment when I'm with Digby he doesn't stray too far - he is only 5 months though. He has little interest in balls etc at home (other than chewing them), so not helpful to engage him whilst walking. I want to keep him near me, especially when we see another dog which is outside my comfort zone for him to be in terms of distance. I'm happy for him to say hello when they are closer. Charlie is obviously hard to engage whilst he's out, do you just recall him when he strays too far?
Re: Why oh Why When I let him off lead I offer him his ball which in other circumstances he is obsessed with but not off lead then when he goes about 20 meters I recall him verbally, sometimes he comes and other times he goes through the hedge rows to sniff about as apparently that's much more interesting. Not sure what else to do, this is all new to me as Hattie has never wanted to stray from me and is always right beside me apart from the occasional run to greet other dogs or flush the odd Pheasant :. This is quite worrying for me and trying to keep him in the comfort zone is too tricky for me I just don't know how to do it because he doesn't really want to be with us. Be thankful you have a puppy that wants to stay near to you and always will. Helen
Re: Why oh Why Hi Helen, I feel you pain....young Brodick is the same, I guess its hard to stop instict taking over when they are amongst stuff that really rocks their world (in Brodick's case wildlife and all smells associated with it). He is glued to me constantly when I am with him normally, follows me everywhere if we are at a friend's house, constantly wants to be near me if we are out in the park, even if other dogs are around, but get him out in a rabbity area and he is a changed boy, and I don't exist! I posted on here a wee a wee while back and got some great advice, others will know a lot more than me and will no doubt be along soon but I would just say dont loose the faith. For the past few weeks I have been avoiding Really Rabbity areas (quite hard where we walk but there are some Rabbit Red Zones so we avoid these). Is there anywhere less exciting sniff you could take him? I've been taking Brodick out on a long line, a few times a week we go without his big sister so I can really focus on him. We constantly practice recalls when he is in my Comfort Zone (30m ish), I started doing this when he was zero distracted (just trotting along happily), and built distraction in VERY slowly. we are now just at the stage where he will recall when he is Air Sniffing in a Hunty Way and looking focused, and that has taken an hour and a half walk every day for three weeks!! I've just tried really hard not to set him up to fail and I am seeing a significant difference in him. Cuillin has always looked to me to see which way we are going if we reach a forked path, Brods never has, but in the last week he has started to turn and look as if to say right which way. I am treating this as major progress! The other thing I have done is try really hard to find what floats his boat other than wildlife. Not interested in balls or dummies outside. By accident we stumbled across a half destroyed dog toy that was a tennis ball attached to a foam plane, and he LOVES it. so every ten-fifteen minutes or so we stop and he does retreives of this very excitedly. His focus on me thereafter is much better. I dread the day it collapses as I can't find them on the web! Anyway, as I say I am a complete novice at all of this but I've decided this will be no quick fix, but we are getting there slowly and I know you will with Charlie because you have done such great stuff in the past, when you never thought you could!
Re: Why oh Why Helen, I had a look at your very first post here where you ask if it will ever be possible for Charlie to go on off lead walks in the countryside with you. What I am going to say now is just my personal view having some experience with a rescue dog who had been allowed to run free on walks before he came to me. I turned my cocker around and he is now a fabulous shooting dog, BUT I would never ever take his lead off on a walk and just let him get on with it. I know that it would not take long for him to revert back to his old ways of self employment. Anything he does off lead is totally under my control, unless he is playing in my fenced in garden with the other dogs. But when we are out and about he either walks to heel, he is on an authorised retrieve or he is hunting closely in front of me. In my mind most spaniels and quite a few other gundog breeds don't 'do' walks, they hunt, no matter what. So unless you teach your dog to hunt for you and with you he will always go off and do his own thing. I hope that didn't sound harsh, because that is not how it is meant. If gundog training is not your cup of tea then maybe look into something like tracking. The dog will get a chance to use his nose but is totally under your control.
Re: Why oh Why Heidrun, thanks for your views, the problem is I have NO experience with this breed of dog (he should never have been placed with us) and I really don't know what I am doing or how to handle him off lead. Unfortunately I don't have any more hours left in the day, as with all of us, to go to gundog training or tracking. Charlie is rarely under my control off lead which is why I am in this mess and have been for 16 long months. You clearly know what you are doing as this is your thing, you have what it takes and your dogs do as you tell them. I just don't have this authority and I truly can't see a way forward when we have days like today I don't take your views as harsh at all Thanks Debsie, you are doing great with your dogs, but I am losing the will now as having let him off lead this week I can see really things are not much better than back in October when I started to keep him on lead. Helen
Re: Why oh Why Riley used to leg it through hedges to find new playmates and we've spent a lot of time like you have with Charlie rebuilding his recall. First thing was to stop him self rewarding so walks were on slip lead or long line which I realised did him no harm at all Off lead action was in safe areas where he couldn't get far or self reward. We worked our socks off trying to proof his recall. Also we tried to do several short training sessions a day ranging from long sits while I make a cup of tea to retrieves in the garden. This was an attempt to instil general obedience as well as exercise his brain. We're getting on pretty well, if I'm with the buggy (boring) he'll choose a playmate over us so he spends more time on his lead then if it's just him and me(or Ben) when he's pretty solid. We have to work at being interesting though with running away and ball chasing to keep him engaged (we look like idiots but we have no pride any more! ;D ) You've done amazingly well with him, remember how far you've come! I don't think on lead walks will do him any harm while you continue his training and free running in the paddock you sorted out. I have a friend with a spitz type dog that has no recall at all and she stays on a long lead for all her walks and as far as I can tell is a very happy, contented dog
Re: Why oh Why Thanks Barbara, I have done all the long sits, ball retrieving etc. changing direction, also no pride left and everything else I have advised to do but when we are out he doesn't want to know even after all this time. Having him on lead and Hattie off is a recipe for disaster as he goes nuts and it's too difficult and I really can't go back to the hours of walking them separately that I have been doing. He has done amazingly well in areas but not this one and it's the one I need. Can't have him on a long lead as when he reaches the end that's the end of me! The paddock provides a bit of burning off and that's it really. I don't understand one of your comments Heidrun, that certain gun dogs don't walk they hunt. I live in a rural area and most dogs around here are gundogs and they all free run and walk off lead with no issues. I am at a loss.
Re: Why oh Why Helen, you need to keep the faith here. Has Charlie done a runner and left you for the wide horizons??? No, he hasn't! OK, so sometimes he dodges through the hedge and sniffs around in the neighbouring field, but on your own account he comes back within 30 seconds when you call. Maybe this dog is NEVER going to have perfect recall... and you are going to have to find a way to live with that, to make this doable on your own terms. Don't get down in the dumps...
Re: Why oh Why Helen , I feel for you but also agree with Karen , this might be something you may just have to accept . As she says , you might not think so, but you do have some control, otherwise he would leg it and not come back, period . I have the oposite with Sam , he doesnt want to go off sniffing about, he wants to work on walks and for ages , I couldnt come to terms with that at all , thinking that he was an oddity for wanting to work with me all the time, but now , I realise that whilst the same breed , they are all different, probably down to their breeding and that we have to go with the flow to an extent . I can well understand you saying that you simply dont have the time for gundog training, it is time consuming for those with busy lives like yourself , but please try not to despair , ask yourself how far has he come ? A blinkin long way , be proud xx
Re: Why oh Why Karen & Kate, thank you again. I think I judge Charlie harshly and expect him to reach the giddy heights of your dogs which in reality he won't reach, and I in turn will not reach these heights of training either. I will have to accept that he will dodge in and out of hedge rows and fields but he has been coming back just maybe not as quickly as I would like but I will keep working on it. Just seeing his long gangly legs running towards me and not his rear end heading into the next County should be reward enough I will keep the faith and try to remember that perfection is NOT Charlie or me I love the soppy boy all the same Helen xxx
Re: Why oh Why Very few are perfect Helen , Sam definately isnt, he has his moments too , please dont worry, he is doing ok , all down to you
Re: Why oh Why Of course you love him Helen, he's gorgeous! Keep at it, but you have to remember to 'accentuate the positive'. Come on girl, we know you don't have the easiest row to hoe with your family and Charlie, but you have done so well so far - and who wants perfection anyway? We, and our dogs, are all unique, with our own quirks and oddities - and Charlie is certainly a character in his own right! I loved your description of his long gangly legs running towards you... ;D As for 'giddy heights of training' - the Cushion Monster is currently snoring quietly next to me!
Re: Why oh Why Thank you lovely ladies, I am a worry wart and it affects my confidence. I am concerned about him self rewarding, but at the same time he needs do be a dog too and do doggie things! Lets see what happens today as it's snowing Helen x
Re: Why oh Why Helen , another thing its worth remembering is that dogs do sense our stress and anxieties and if they think we are anxious, they will become anxious too, so the more relaxed you can be on walks , the better Charlie will be xx
Re: Why oh Why I just read the very interesting article written by Pippa on the Labrador Site. Training - proofing - maintaining obedience. Helen, you have now taught your Charlie what the recall means but I wonder if you have thoroughly proofed this in the outside world? Proofing a behaviour can be notoriously difficult because you have to cover so many different situations, different environments and different criteria. The other thing that would probably help you immensely is to teach your dog the stop whistle. There are times when it is easier to interrupt whatever it is your dog is doing than to recall him from something very exciting. Just an idea.
Re: Why oh Why Heidrun do you have any tips for training the stop whistle? At what point in his training would you normally train a dog to 'stop'? I'm currently extending the distance away from me whilst asking Riley to sit but am waiting til he's looking at me otherwise he usually comes towards me first before sitting down. We're doing this in the garden and on our walks and I don't recall him from this sit I go to him and give him his praise/reward.
Re: Why oh Why Hi Heidrun, after some discussion with my husband who has just returned from the USA, we have decided to keep Charlie on lead until we have finished Pippa's Total Recall training which I have been doing since October 2012. I really was just letting him have a bit of off lead to see how he reacted but I DO NOT want him to start self rewarding again. I am virtually at the section of Proofing with Dogs and then it's Out on Location, so not long now. I am thrilled that Charlie has a BASIC recall, but it still needs lots of proofing, I will just have to be patient I will be very interested in teaching him the stop whistle which I will find out about when I have completed the recall, don't want to confuse the poor lad He responds very well to the whistle so we are hoping this is going to be our saviour How difficult is it to teach a stop to a whistle?
Re: Why oh Why It is not difficult. But like everything else in dog training it takes time. Next to the recall it is the most important command, if nothing else it will stop your dog getting into deeper trouble. I work in tiny steps when I teach it until I can stop the dog a couple of hundred yards away.
