OK I'm being a touch simple right now but I hate doing stuff when I don't know absolutely exactly what I'm doing. I want to get E. dog's hips and elbows x-rayed. Not because she's suffering but because I'd like to know what state they're in. If the Vet doesn't look unhappy with them I'd like to send them off to the KC for scoring. will any Vet be able to give an indication before i bother to spend the money on the Kennel Club bit of the operation? How's that worded to the Vets? Am I supposed to look round for pricing? Do the plates need to be sent off by the Vets or are they given to me for onward sending? Rather than using the standard Vet should i be looking for a specific one that is focused on this work? i've looked on the internet for this type of stuff but it isn't detailed enough or it's too detailed and not for the stupid like what i am. Definitely not saying I'm going to breed her but I think I would like to know whether she could or she couldn't. Then I can decide whether I would or wouldn't. If I get her x-rayed at one is she more likely to have better scores than if x-rayed at three? thank you for your kindness
Re: X-Rays Sorry I can't help with this. In my ignorance too.....does a dog have to be x-rayed? Is a hip score not enough?
Re: X-Rays So, as I understand it (while we wait for Lochan or someone else who really knows!) the only way of hip scoring is via an x-ray. Merla was spayed recently and I asked for her hips to be x-rayed while she was under anaesthetic to check how they were looking before we start jumping around in earnest after her first birthday (might do some agility as well as the gundog stuff). In order to get an actual hip score, the dog must be over a year old aand the x-rays have to be sent on to a specially registered veterinary radiologist I think (which obviously costs more). I didn't want that, just wanted a general idea as to whether there were problems I didn't know about. The vet didn't think so and the x-rays looked good to me too (I used to work in hospitals doing radiation stuff including imaging, so I'm pretty used to x-rays). Basically, you're looking for a nice smooth ball and socket, with no degeneration around the edges (but obviously to do a proper job it's more complicated than that). If you google dog hip score images you get an idea of what's good and what's bad.
Re: X-Rays They have to be x-rayed Jac for the hip score. And it involves a light anaesthetic. Not sure how it works in the uk Sarah, but it is better to have it done at 1 year old than at 3, because of normal wear and tear. I had Poppy hip scored here, you have to go to a vet who is specialized and knows what they are doing, because there is a inherent danger in the procedure. then in Germany at least the results are sent off to the equivalent of the kennel club. The good thing about it, apart from it being a must if you are thinking of possibly breeding, is that if the scores aren't great you at least know, and can tailor your exercise regime accordingly. Most people who compete here have the hip scores done, for that reason as well as for breeding purposes. Why not talk to her breeder, bet they would give you some good advice.
Re: X-Rays Southern Canine Imaging in Hampshire are the best, in my mind. All of my friends use them and it is where Ziggy was hip and elbow scored. Very light sedative is used and the ladies who run the clinic will talk you through the X-rays afterwards. They are immensely experienced and will have a good idea what the actual score will be. I wouldn't use anybody else!
Re: X-Rays For the scoring procedure the xrays are taken according to a standard protocol to get the appropriate view for the films to be scored - legs extended, slightly rotated in etc etc. So whilst vets who do this all the time may be slightly quicker at doing it and take fewer views, almost any practice can take them. Because the views are standardised, you should not get a different score from different vets xrays. Most vets will give you a good idea of the approximate score of the hips and elbows. Could I make a little plea here? If you go to the trouble to have the xrays taken, please, please send them off for official scoring even if your own vet thinks they are poor. Otherwise the data generated for the hip and elbow schemes across the breed means nothing - if people only send off good films for official scoring, the breed averages will not reflect reality at all.
Re: X-Rays [quote author=heidrun link=topic=5792.msg74318#msg74318 date=1399398615] Southern Canine Imaging in Hampshire are the best, in my mind. All of my friends use them and it is where Ziggy was hip and elbow scored. Very light sedative is used and the ladies who run the clinic will talk you through the X-rays afterwards. They are immensely experienced and will have a good idea what the actual score will be. I wouldn't use anybody else! [/quote] a-ha! thank you v. v. much Heidrun. You're clever
Re: X-Rays [quote author=Lochan link=topic=5792.msg74326#msg74326 date=1399399225] For the scoring procedure the xrays are taken according to a standard protocol to get the appropriate view for the films to be scored - legs extended, slightly rotated in etc etc. So whilst vets who do this all the time may be slightly quicker at doing it and take fewer views, almost any practice can take them. Because the views are standardised, you should not get a different score from different vets xrays. Most vets will give you a good idea of the approximate score of the hips and elbows. Could I make a little plea here? If you go to the trouble to have the xrays taken, please, please send them off for official scoring even if your own vet thinks they are poor. Otherwise the data generated for the hip and elbow schemes across the breed means nothing - if people only send off good films for official scoring, the breed averages will not reflect reality at all. [/quote] I see your point, I really do but I assume that that is going to cost more money and it would seem a difficult sell to him indoors to spend more if they were pants. Thanks for the advice and the explanation.
Re: X-Rays For the hips, if you don't plan on breeding you don't really need an official score, surely? Penny had diagnostic hip X-rays done as she was beginning to be lame and stiff. I had her done using the PennHip laxity procedure which is a lot more accurate than the traditional films taken for hip scoring. The only down side is they have to be sent to the US for analysis so the results can take a while to come back - ours took about three weeks but my orthopaedic vet knew what they were like, we just had to wait for the 'official' verdict if that makes sense. I don't really know much about elbow X-rays. What about cost? I don't think insurance will cover hip and elbow X-rays just for a 'I want to see what they're like' scenario - Petplan shelled out for Penny's hips as they were diagnostic, but the hips alone would have come to over £900!
Re: X-Rays I think this is a really good idea - I had all of Charlie's joints looked at under x-ray and think it was the best thing I ever did. I know some people don't think this should be done unless there is a problem, but for me (I had a problem although wasn't diagnosed through the x-rays) it took a huge weight off my mind to know that hip and elbow dysplasia were not a problem for us. I went to my local vet - but he runs an orthopedic referrals service, so very much knows what he was doing. Even so, I was glad also to have an orthopedic surgeon involved who could say what he thought too. I got a really clear view from these people without scoring (the surgeon was happy to tell me that he thought the elbows were zero and hips zero or very nearly so). Charlie was under one at the time so I couldn't get them scored. Anyway. The cost was a lot - about £1900. This was because I had 2 views of every joint done, including shoulders etc. It was expensive. I thought, and still think, it was worth it.
Re: X-Rays I wouldn't see it as a routine procedure though. If I suspected a problem or was contemplating breeding from my dog then I'd have it done. Obi has had hip x-rays for the former reason. But I wouldn't do it just because the procedure is available. No-one is saying they would, but just thought I'd throw that view in!
Re: X-Rays [quote author=Oberon link=topic=5792.msg74393#msg74393 date=1399412641] I wouldn't see it as a routine procedure though. [/quote] I think they do see it as a routine procedure in some European countries though. I think Karen and Chris said that was the case in Germany? Poppy had hers done as a matter of routine - I think.
Re: X-Rays Don't know, really - I got the impression it was routine from this thread: http://www.thelabradorforum.com/index.php?topic=5087.msg63908#msg63908 It was quite routine. I don't know who pays if the breeder asks... have to wait for Chris or Karen.
Re: X-Rays From that thread: [quote author=Karen link=topic=5087.msg63908#msg63908 date=1395909993] It's very normal here in Germany too to have your dogs hips and elbows checked, either if there is any chance that you want to breed, or if your breeder requests it, or if you are planning to work or compete with your dog. We had Poppy's hips and elbows x-rayed too - also perfect! Yay!! [/quote] Routine if you want to compete, work your dog, breed from them or the breeder wants to know, but not routine for the overwhelming majority of dogs, who don't fall into those categories. I'm all for the German approach but I just wouldn't want people to read all this and think "now I not only have to worry about the brand of kibble I'm using but x-rays as well".
Re: X-Rays Exactly Rachael. Most people here DON'T have their dogs hip scored UNLESS they are going to breed, or it is a stipulation from the breeder, or they are going to compete. Otherwise, dog owners of normal 'pet' dogs wouldn't do it as routine - only if there is a problem.
Re: X-Rays I have to say that I'm very happy we got Odins hips and ellbows x-rayed. Now i know everything is fine i don't get goose bumps everytime he jumps off the sofa, dashes down a steep hill or does other joint stressing things all our labs do from time to time. Also i would have liked to know if there was a problem with his joints early enough to get propper diet and treatment BEFORE problems surface. Our breeder payed for all of Odin's X-rays and also for those of his litter mates because she is planning to have another litter with the same stud and bitch but only if the joint scores of the first litter are good.( yes we are very happy with our breeder ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D)
Re: X-Rays [quote author=Oberon link=topic=5792.msg74424#msg74424 date=1399424537] t I just wouldn't want people to read all this and think "now I not only have to worry about the brand of kibble I'm using but x-rays as well". [/quote] No, quite right, and that's not the case, and people shouldn't think it's something they have to do. I think though, that it's also ok if, like me, someone is very worried about it, to consider doing it for peace of mind. Charlie has been x-rayed twice now, each time under just a light sedation. And if I got another labrador, I would have it done when the dog was a year old, even without any visible sign of a problem. I do agree that this is a very individual thing, and peace of mind comes at a cost to be balanced - financial and the procedure on the dog.
