Hi all quick question, me and Rolo went back to basi obedience classes today after a break of about 3 week. There was a new trainer. Rolo was a bit of a nightmare (barking, over excited) so i adoped a click for quiet to reinforce when rolo wasnt barking at other dogs and was calm. The trainer watched me use my clicker. Said very good to see, but you are using it wrong He said your using it to get his attention. I wasnt at all. I said no sorry im clicking during quiet periods to reinforce that he gets treats for quiet. Am i right in doing this? He made me feel silly. He then said that clicking is only for new behaviours and not reinforcing already learnt one? I am just feeling frustrated tonight.
In a way the trainer is right. A clicker marks good behaviour...so for example a dog sits...you click the "sit". The thing here is that I have found that because the clicker reinforces a behaviour, it is quite activating and engaging..it is rewarding an activity..sit..down...paw...I have found with working with a settle, I want to reward disengagement and stllness. So a clicker may not work. I reward a settle..first 2 seconds...(when Benson is relaxed, not looking at me..) then 4 seconds...by placing a treat in between his paws. I don't say anything. In actual fact I don't even make eye contact. Just a quick treat. It takes time but really works.
I'm sure someone else will have good advice on clicking for quiet - I feel like I may have seen threads on that. I have not used the clicker for that, however Quinn barks at me in training class when she is bored or over stimulated and when she does so, my trainer instructed that I ignore her and look away and treat when she stops and re-engage with her - then I bring the clicker back out. It honestly feels like a million years when your dog is barking at you in front of a class full of people (and seemingly chill dogs) but she would stop and she did learn that barking = I'm so boring. And stops as soon as I look away from her now. That is the only time she barks, ever! When she was younger, at our first basic training class to learn the clicker, to keep dogs settled in class while listening to instruction or waiting our turn, we treat streamed then spaced out the treats over time. This worked pretty well - she would focus on me and not what else was happening.
Thanks - thats exactly how i feel. He would not stop barking and didnt seem interested in me at all. I feel like he wont care if i turn away as he isnt look at me anyway i had quite high value treats too not boring kibble. I hope we make progress soon.. feel like toom 10 steps back after a short break
Thank you that makes more sence than what the trainer was trying to say. And the way he went about it made me feel embarrased. Makes total sense in all honesty i was just annoyed! Thanks
"Click for quiet" tends to be for things like crate training a young puppy, where quiet can last a fraction of a second. A clicker is great for capturing an event that lasts a very short time - we often use the analogy of "taking a photo of the behaviour you're after" - the clicker being the sound of the shutter. But, a clicker generally works as a release from the behaviour, too. So, once you click, they can break. For things with duration, I tend to prefer to have a "duration marker", which means "you're doing the right thing, and I want you to carry on doing that". I'm completely inconsistent with this, and use either "goooooood", or "niiiiiiiice". There's no reason why you can't teach a dog to "work through" a clicker, but it's not how it tends to be used. As Kate says, a clicker also tends to build arousal because we pair it with something exciting, whereas for prolonged quiet, settles etc, it's often better to just use a quiet "good" or "yes" and deliver the reward, without hyping the dog up.
It sounds like Quinn is similar to my Willow, who used to whine and jump up when being asked to wait and watch Shadow work. It's through frustration, and was pretty simple to train out. You just need to decrease the duration she is doing nothing. This is either by having scenarios where there's a quick switch between dogs - which can be difficult in a led training environment, obviously, or you take control of "your" lesson and intermittently ask for behaviours from her instead of sitting doing nothing. I think, very often, people feel they have to do what the trainer is asking, no more and no less, but remember you're there to help your dog learn, and that means setting them up for success. If she can't sit still for five minutes while the trainer is talking, as her for a hand target, a heel, a right heel, a front sit, a down.... anything to give her a job to do and reduce her frustration.
Thaks Fiona I wish the trainer would of explained it to me in a bit more detail. Insstead he made me feel like a school child. It all totally makes sence and i will certainly try and keep him occupied and set hi up for success Thank you all for giving me proper advice!! Xx
I do wonder about the motivation of some trainers. We do sadly hear many stories on here about people being made to feel small by their trainers. It's awful!
One of my gundog trainer reduces me almost to tears and I am afraid to do something in case I do it wrong! Conversely, my ex police dog trainer gives me (and the dogs) confidence and never berates me. He believes in confidence and not punishment for us both.
I've got the opposite. Our trainer praises and tells me how well Libby has done when she's actually been a pain in the butt while, it seems, all the other dogs are doing it beautifully! Who else feels they have the worst behaved dog in class? I wonder if it's just an impression and not the truth?
In class, ours barks and barks, he lunges & pulls on the lead. He is the worst in class. BUT, he does all the exercises better than all the other dogs in class... Coco is good/trouble together
Yes, she is definitely acting out of frustration (she will also throw a teeth clack at me, which is 100% frustration). Once I felt a bit more comfortable in the environment, I would go off to the side and work on our own stuff and she would calm right down again. To be fair to Quinn, those classes had much too long waiting time between dogs and exercises and was boring to me too! @Jyssica don't be afraid to ask questions in class - you are there to learn and are paying them to teach you!
As a very novice trainer (and one who doesn't get paid), what do you all think about suggesting to people whose dogs bark with excitement in an indoor class that they either give the dog something to hold or give long slow strokes. I found both these ideas in a book (can't remember off-hand which one) and would be interested in your thoughts. Do you think it would work? In a class with more space I'd suggest moving around, but this isn't feasible where I go.
Well, both might work, but it will depend on the dog. If they're too over threshold, then the stroking probably won't work. If they don't want to hold the item, then that won't work. Is the dog capable of doing anything? Following any cues, even the most basic things he knows? Will he take food? If not, then I think you're on a hiding to nothing and the dog needs to learn some coping skills outside of the class environment before being exposed to it again. Working on LAT at a distance would help, so you can show the owner how to do this and have them practice outside of class. Or, is there any way that this dog could be paired with another to work on it outside somewhere? I'm assuming your indoors! Or, have the owner take their dog outside, find the distance away he can concentrate, reward for that, and gradually get closer.
Interesting - Quinn doesn't really like to be pet so long strokes would not work for her, but holding a ball in her mouth would definitely work. The ball is used as a reward though, so I wouldn't want to give that to her and reward barking. It would have to be given as a reward from her last exercise to hold until it was time to start again - i could see it working.
I'll ask OH to try these for you Joy - see what happens. I'm thinking he won't want to hold anything, he has that Labrador gene missing, I'll ask him to try both.
DebzC.....Cooper and I had a good trainer.....BUT MY DOG....oh,that was a different story! One class he had a huge poo right in the middle of the training area. Another class he got loose and no one could catch him. Another class he cut in front of me and I fell over his leash and needed help to get up. I think all in the class were ecstatic that Cooper and I were the "bad" ones so all the rest looked good!But trainer was very understanding and kind. I still felt like an outcast and embarrassed, to say the least. Cooper had one heck of a good time!!!
Its good to hear stories of peoples traini g class blunders It makes me feel less of an outcast or like the bad egg ha ha i also fell over on thursday. I was crouched down to his level reducing the barking so the trainer could talk and he took off taking me with him
Remember, if they could do it perfectly we wouldn't be in training. We're there for a reason, to learn. You will soon grow a thick skin
