I am in America and it seems over here everyone is obsessed with English vs American labs. I'm constantly asked which I have and quite frankly I don't get it. Rhaegar is a "English lab" though being born in America kind of ruins that I believe, while Roach is your slender American lab. Besides head shape is there really any difference? Someone from France I knew would only hunt with American labs as he said their energy level was better.
In the UK, we have show labs (your English labs) and Field labs (your American) Confusing, yeah? They look like different breeds!
Yes, it is weird how these labels have sprung up. From what I understand, the "American" lab is what they would call in the UK the "field" Lab, and is bred to do the normal "work" of a Labrador - retrieve on hunts. They tend to be more athletic and higher energy than the other "show" lab (called "English" labs in North America), which are bred for showing (for confirmation, etc). However there are some who tell you that these distinctions of temperament and energy level, etc are certainly not true all across the board. You can get slower "Field" labs and high energy "show" Labs. What does seem to be true is that the field labs tend to be smaller and perhaps have a more rangy look than the show labs. Anyhow as I own a Lab/Newfie X and have never hunted or shown a Lab, I am not the expert on this in any way shape or form. Others on the boards have though, I"m sure they will be around to fill in more gaps in my knowledge.
In England, we call them show and field. We couldn't really call them English and English. There is a big difference in general, yes. People have very different views on the pros and cons. Some field bred Labs look quite like a traditional Labrador, but others look very 'houndy' - taller, thin tails, rounded ears, pointy noses etc.(dogs from Field Trial lines in the UK seem to be extremely tall). Some show bred dogs are lighter than the average field bred dog, others are unfortunately far too heavily built to be credible as a gundog. It's all muddled though because there are a lot of Labradors that haven't particularly been bred to work (traditionally that means shooting or Field Trial competitions although there are of course lots of different types of 'work' many carried out by Labradors from show lines) or for the show ring. It isn't really the case that a Labrador must be one or the other. Lots of Labradors are simply bred as good tempered pets, without any regard to the characteristics that would make them a good dog to take shooting, to compete with in Field Trials, or go into the show ring. I have two show line dogs. They are not low energy, not at all. They tend to be more excitable, a bit noisier, less steady than dogs that have been bred from lines that make good working dogs. They both go gundog training, and one is a passionate retriever, the other is a keen retriever. The keen retriever, being less obsessive about retrieving so likely to be steadier would make the better working dog.
LOL, the terms "American" and "English" are not favoured for precisely the reason you give, they don't make a lot of sense. A lot of breeders and people who show in one venue often say Field Bred or Show/Bench Bred, respectively. My boy is from show lines, bred in Canada, and has Canadian, British and American champions in his pedigree. Yes, there are some general differences. As the field bred dog breeders tend to look for performance over adhering to the standard their appearance can vary widely. Some are big, some small, a lot tend to be lighter weight looking (can run faster in field trials) have "snipey" looking heads and can be pretty high energy dogs. But not always by any means. Show bred dogs are supposed to fit the standard but one of the breed's wonky features in the U.S. and Canada is that weight is in the standard and it's something apparently few stick to. The weight is described as "working condition" weight but nowhere is working condition described and I haven't found anyone who says their dog's working condition weight was checked or even asked about before a conformation show. All our friends who hunt over Labs use show bred dogs. WE were warned a field bred dog was too high energy for occasional hunting a few weekends a year and house pet duties most of the time. As our own field trainer said, field trials are not much like real hunting. I had the most interesting terminology lesson shortly after we got Oban and took him to walk in a big area used a lot in waterfowl season by people with all kinds of hunting dogs. A man who worked at this place said to us, "Oh, he's one of those short nosed Labs. Most of the dogs I see here are those long nosed Labs." LOL, he meant Oban was show/bench bred instead of field bred. And since Labs have been the most popular dog breed in the U.S. and Canada for going on 20 years now, maybe it is 20, a lot if not most of them aren't field or show bred. They are pet bred. Often bred with no regard to standard, use, temperament, health checks, nothing.
Besides the field and bench/show differences that the others have already explained excellently, I think that taking the breed out of the equation, this is just a cultural American thing. We do it with people too: "What are you?" is a pretty standard question, and any American will have this whole grocery list of what they "are". For example, I'm German, Irish, Scottish and American Indian (running joke is that most of us "mutts" claim to be part Cherokee, Lakota, etc. to add that bit of exotic to the mix - my family is no exception). It was only when I moved to Europe did I understand that saying I was "German" was all a bit weird... what I am is American. But that's just our culture and sort an interesting little quirk that you don't even realise until you get out of the US bubble. And honestly, that is why I suspect that instead of just saying "field vs. show" the Americans say "American vs. English". It just sounds cooler to us. Saying you have a show Lab could sound a bit....um... prissy?... but "English"... WAY exotic and classy! Personally, if I get my Lab from German breeder, I'm looking forward to being able to claim that I have an incredibly exotic sub-category of Labrador, the rare "Bavarian Lederhosen Labrador".
Thankyou for all your insight! I've always thought it was strange going out with my pups to get immediately bombarded with "is he English or American?!". Show/Field make a lot more sense. Where I live I think people are obsessed with having a unique dog so saying your lab (which in my opinion is a pretty common dog) is English, makes him sound unique! To further that I paid almost nothing for my Black lab because "his color was plain"... it's pretty ridiculous. At least, in Texas it is.
I have an American friend (she is a very good, old, friend now) who 30 years ago when I first met her at university told me she was "15th generation Swedish". So not Swedish at all then!
That's very interesting because in the states it seems to be the other way round. From what I've seen both in person and on hunting forums, our field-bred labs are noisy, high-strung, and hard to steady. That's also why a lot of people pay big money to send their dog off to be trained/handled by a well-known pro at least when involved in field trials. Interestingly enough I had someone from the UK comment that few of the field-bred labs over here would do well in FTs there because barking and the like wouldn't be tolerated. The show-bred dogs are known over here to be the plodding, mellow gentle labs. Of course that's not the situation all of the time but in most cases it is. This super high-drive FT lab is also why Americans are so reliant on the use of e-collars (though, I do use one myself sometimes). The OP also forgot to mention we also have 'British' labs which are different from both 'English' and 'American' labs, although some are actually technically English because they are imported, lol. Our 'British' labs are descended from working lines and FCs in the UK, so they are just another strain of field-bred lab; I think they are a response to our high-strung, balls-to-the-wall FT lines and supposedly have a natural inclination to deliver to hand, be steady, and are easier to train/eager to retrieve. Supposedly it's a balance between the more even-tempered show-bred lab and the insane FT lab, as FTs are crazy competitive. This whole thing is nothing new with regards to gun dog breeds over here. I'm not sure how it is in other parts of the world but here there's a noticeable discrepancy between the dogs you see in the field and the ring (Chessies, Tollers, GSPs, GWPs, Vizslas, and Weims seem to be the main exceptions). Look at a working cocker or setter vs. a show dog, they aren't even recognizable as the same breed. We also have that American-tendency to need to classify EVERYTHING. For example, my ex recently brought home a lovely liver ticked Pointer. Are they called Pointers over here? Nope, we call them 'English' Pointers. Pointers are not at all common and most have never seen one. People assume he is a GSP but I've also been asked if he's a Springer?, mutt, or hound. It annoys me because I tell them he's a Pointer and they ask what kind... Pointers (Llewellyn Setters as well) even have their own registry, the Field Dog Stud Book which hosts its own FTs, hunt tests, and tracks pedigrees. Teller definitely has a field-bred look about him; he has a coat slightly thicker than a GSP (with a light layer of undercoat), a thin tail (although it IS technically the proper shape), long legs, and a slight-build. His head is somewhere between rounded and blocky and his muzzle is a bit longer than most show labs but shorter than a majority of field-bred labs, if that makes sense? But I do think his head is quite nicely shaped, especially in profile (and when compared to a lot of pet-bred labs I've seen). Of course his ears are sort of small... lol. Anyways, we think he was the result of two hunters who decided to have a litter and couldn't sell him. We think this because he has a lot of drive, a soft mouth, retrieves to hand, absolutely lives for retrieving, and an excellent nose AND he was dropped off at the shelter at 12 weeks old. The shelter staff said he was in very good health, well-nourished, and had no parasites, which is unusual in a dog born on the streets. There were also no other puppies with him. It just seemed a bit weird to us to have a dog who has such a natural hunting drive and ability out of some random street dog, lol. But stranger things, right?
Yes, I've read that about the US Field Trials being long distance straight line retrieving competitions, and not at all like the UK Field Trials. E-collars are terrible things. I hope they will soon be made illegal in the UK (they already are in parts of it).
They are like any training tool and can (and are) misused. I personally use the vibration and tone settings for Teller without having to actually use the nick function. I also believe a lot of our usage of e-collars has to do with the areas in which we hunt in the states. Almost all of the training programs here include the e-collar. I would love to train T using British methodology but I cannot find a good source with which to do this. If I had to classify his style, I would say he is less like the American FT dogs because he is quiet and methodical when hunting while still maintaining his high-drive. He's been relatively easy to train and doesn't push back. I've heard from several people with the American FT dogs that they find adjusting to leisure time in the house more difficult than other labs. T is calm and happy to sleep curled up next to me when in the house but as soon as his orange collar comes out, he knows it's time to work or train. Field Trials here are heavily focused on running straight lines over long distances (sometimes in excess of 400m). There's a heavy influence on breeding dogs who will run straight. Teller runs straight lines (I thought that was kind of natural for dogs to do, lol). Something else I've found sort of odd is that a good portion of FT dogs do not hunt. Do you guys have that weird divide or is it just us?
Um.....you know, for people who don't use e-collars this always sounds entirely unconvincing. You are just saying that you have never - never ever - used the 'nick' function (and that's a laugh - like it's just a little nick that doesn't hurt). In which case, there is absolutely no point in using an e-collar and you may as well just use your verbal recall or a whistle. Using the pain function, then switching to the vibrate as a 'threat' of the pain to come still makes them horrific things to use. It's not very natural for dogs to run in straight lines. I've never entered a Field Trial, and very likely I never will! My training is no way good enough! Whether a Labrador hunts or not depends. Some people have Labradors in beating lines, and have them flush birds while rough shooting but they are pretty pathetic at hunting compared to spaniels. So the spaniels do the hunting, and the Labradors do the fetching. A Labrador will of course hunt for a retrieve and follow the scent of a runner and 'bird finding' ability is very highly prized.
I initially bought the e-collar at the urging of every gun dog trainer I spoke to. I rarely have used the nick function but when I have it's been on the lowest possible setting (I've used it maybe a handful of times). I don't use the e-collar that frequently anymore and I refuse to use the continuous setting, but a lot of trainers do, especially where force-fetching is concerned. I know you guys probably do not do force-fetching, but how do you teach the 'Hold!' command without using FF? I am genuinely curious as we don't have a lot of UK training resources here and I would like to teach my dog without having to use aversives. He has learnt a whistle recall and whistle sit, but we are working on casting. Since he is going to be flushing, I've started whistle turns too. I had no idea dogs didn't naturally run straight, lol. Perhaps my boy is weird? I've never entered a FT either but I wouldn't be eligible to without official papers; the max I can get T is a Purebred Alternative Listing with the AKC. I've not met many spaniels, although Springers are fairly common about town (I'm 90% sure most people don't hunt with them). Labs here are used for a variety of hunting (including shed antlers and deer trailing) but Teller has quite a natural instinct to hunt. He finds animals everywhere we go and goes on point? Which, we have 'pointing' labs so not so unheard of in these parts. I meant that the people who spend tons of money and time to get their dogs trained/into FTs don't even use said highly-trained dogs to hunt. When I say 'hunt' I mean they do not use them as retrievers on a duck hunt and many feel it 'ruins' the dog to do so.
If you have trained the dog initially using the pain function (what you call the nick function) then the vibrate is a threat of pain that might come. This is quite clear in the user manuals for e-collars - which I have studied - this is exactly how they are designed to work. So when you use the vibrate or tone function now, you are controlling your dog using intimidation because you have used the pain function in the past. With a clicker and treats. So much nicer. Here is my 10 week old puppy learning hold. Obviously, she is much better at it now! betsy clicker hold by julieandcharlie julieandcharlie, on Flickr
@JulieT - Like I said, I don't use the e-collar that often anymore (if at all). Since most American trainers make use of one, I haven't really thought much of it and Teller is perfectly biddable without; these trainers are probably used to dealing with the hard-headed field-bred types that you see all too often here. I will try teaching 'Hold!' with a clicker and treats, although he will require a good amount of reconditioning on that front since the trainer (not gun dog) taught him to 'Drop!' for a treat. Do you guys introduce hold by placing your hand in the dog's mouth to get them accustomed to holding on command? What about 'Fetch!'? If I have treats and we aren't actively hunting something, Teller's only interested in the food like a typical lab. We have SO many different 'types' of labs. It's funny that you're interested because most of those who have show-line labs or breed them are absolutely appalled by the concept of a labrador that points. FT people also thumb their noses at a pointing lab because in their eyes they do not want a dog who 'hesitates' and it's considered a serious fault. I can do you one better! Here's Teller on point over some fish. Pointing labs obviously don't have the rock solid point, beautiful of any of the Pointing breeds, it's more of a short pause before the flush. Teller will usually hold it until I come to see whatever he's found and it's not uncommon at all for him to stand outside for 10-15 minutes pointing at a frog in the pool. I have no idea where the pointing thing came from! Imagine my surprise walking him late at night only for him to freeze up and point a garden gnome, lol.
It's really good that you don't use it anymore - fab. You can't ever use it once you've conditioned it with aversives if you want to train positively. That's just the way it is. People often train things with aversives, and then stop using punishment and instead give treats when the dog complies. But that doesn't change how they trained the behaviour in the first place. Nothing can ever change that. We proof the hold against food - so the dog only gets the food if it does not drop the dummy when food is presented. Quite simple, really. Hold the dummy until the drop cue - you get the treat. Drop the dummy when you see food - you don't get the treat. Yep, it's not a good idea to train drop for treats (as you appreciate). No. I don't do this, and I've never met anyone that does do it. I don't know what you mean, really. Why would you put your hand in the dog's mouth? What purpose would that serve? Proof fetch against food too. I put down food in bowls, and my boy only gets the 'get it' cue for the food if he first fetches what I ask. HeeHee! What a lovely picture! Well, I dunno - I wouldn't want a Labrador to flush, so I think a pointing Labrador is a bit special! How lovely!
It's a little difficult to explain and sort of odd... You insert a hand (usually gloved) into the dog's mouth and hold their bottom jaw gently whilst saying, 'Hold!' until they stop trying to spit it out. You then give them the command you use when you want them to give up game (I use 'Give!') It's another aversive but milder than the ear-pinch. I never really wanted to use FF on my dog because a lot of the methods seem very mean. Most of the time the dog is tethered with its head secured while the dowel or whatever is put into its mouth. Do you guys ever gently tap or hold the jaws to reinforce the hold? I've noticed he does hold certain things, especially bones. He will just sit there with a bone in his mouth and stare at me, lol. I tried using food to teach fetch but it backfires spectacularly. I can't get him to pick things up on command. Any advice on how to do that, lol? Thanks! Pointing labs have their own competitions in the states, hosted by the American Pointing Lab Association. Labs are commonly used as flushing dogs over here, although teaching him to quarter a field is a headache. He's hard-charging and driven so that isn't the problem... he just lacks the genetic predisposition to quarter like a lot of spaniels have. Since he both points and flushes, I decided to use him for flushing. It makes him happy in the field finding game so I figured let him do just that. I don't know anybody who hunts with a spaniel. Most of the hunters I know use Setters, pointing breeds, and retrievers (some use poodles and I've even seen a GSD).
Thanks for the explanation about the hand thing. I've never come across that - but quite early in my (very short!) time gundog training I found completely positive instructors. So, I don't know, maybe people in the UK do this, but I've never come across it. No. Tapping a dog's nose isn't a reinforcer. Neither is holding a dog's jaws. Why would you do that? I suppose it might be done as a distraction, but I can't see why it would ever be a reinforcer. Lots of people call this 'the clicker retrieve' although there are really endless ways to do it, and I'm not a big fan of the full clicker retrieve but some of the best videos that are free are from a trainer called Donna Hill in Canada. Here is the first of her videos: Well, fab! I love the idea that there are pointing competitions for Labs! I wonder if I could train Betsy to point....would beat chasing the dratted birds!
