hi, I think I’ve looked through most of the threads but couldn’t find anything like this. Roger is 19months old. Very happy, energetic and good boy! Loves sleeping on the sofa and loves big walks with his dad! Everyday my husband takes him for 30 minutes fetch play so he gets rid of all the energy! Anyway..husband took him for his last walk of the day on Wednesday (9pm) and said Roger started being very anxious outside. He was sniffing the air like mad and was hiding behind my husband and then rushing to go home. Went straight into his cage (even though you have to ask him every night to go there as we prefers sleeping on the sofa). He was fine the following morning. Happy to go outside and then to the woods for his fetch play but again around 9pm he just went straight in his cage. Husband then called him over and took him outside - again same thing he did a wee and was pulling to go home. We then tried playing with him at home, we was happy for about 10 minutes, waging his tail etc and then suddenly he just went to his cage again. He seems fine this morning. Had his food as normal, was waiting for his carrot as normal. Now he’s sleeping on the sofa as normal. What changes in the evening? Why does he seem afraid of something? Or are we being paranoid? Apologies for such long post but we just really worry about our boy!
Hi @Roger It's not possible to tell from your account what is frightening him. It could be the smell of an animal that has just moved into the area at issue. Or he imagined he saw something in the woods that spooked uim. We'll nevrr know. He feels secure in the crate, which means you did well on that training. I would be inclined to avoid the area that is frightening him. Since you don't know what is causing the fear it is difficult to put forward a training plan. I do not like flooding because it can make matters worse. If you can find anothrr area, then that is the route I would take. If not possible let us know, and we'll try to nut out a solution.
Hi, Thanks so much for your response. I didn’t include few possibly very important facts in my first post. On Sunday prior to that Wednesday evening walk, couple of party poppers were set off (kids birthday party), not realising how awfully loud they were! After those two we stopped anyone else doing it but it was too late! Roger ran straight into his crate! Stayed there pretty much all day but was fine by the evening. Didn’t think much about it as on Monday and Tuesday he was absolutely fine. His behaviour changed on Wednesday. Also husband just only told me that Roger was fine going out for the walk that evening until (they were walking by the road) a car driving past made a loud noise similar to an explosion! Also there was a smoke coming out of someone’s chimney that night and every night so far! (Hence the sniffing!) Could the car reminded him of the party popper sound? Could he be afraid of the smoke? (You can see it and smell it every night now, it’s one of the neighbours having the fireplace on!) He is fine during the day! He still enjoys the woods, playing at home or the garden. It’s the evening that changes him..he doesn’t even want to go out but is wagging his tail when husband puts his shoes on and calls him over and he does go, not being pulled or pushed out! He spent more time on the sofa again today so fingers crossed he’s not as anxious as he was on Thursday! Thanks for reading! And possible comments! Very much appreciated!
Hi @Roger I believe you have worked out the problem yourself. Your dog does not like sudden loud noises. I suspect that your dog believes the smoke from the chimney is associated with the noise he dislikes. What to do about it? You might try desensitisation. On one of the fixed threads there is a file with various noises. There is also a set of instructions. https://thelabradorforum.com/threads/sounds-scary-resources-now-available-free-from-dogstrust.11810/ I have to admit that the success rate is not high. Most dogs know the difference between a soundtrack and the real thing. But it is worth trying because it might reduce the severity of your dog's aversion. It is also possible to buy an Adaptil collar and spray, which emits a calming chemical. It has a higher success rate but admittedly does not work with all dogs. Surely worth a try. You are doing the correct lead work. Let him approach the area rather than pulling him in to face his fears.
I don't know where you live, but of course in the UK we also, at the moment, have the nightmare of bonfire night and fireworks night - which should probably be called bonfire week or month, given how long it goes on for... Really, you are going to need to first enable him to feel safe and secure before you can begin to work on this. That means not taking him out in the dark, making a den of his crate for him so he feels safe, getting an Adaptil diffuser and collar on him, putting him on a course of Zylkene, and maybe doing some positive reinforcement training with him indoors around the time he starts to feel worried, so you can take his mind off that and gradually push back against it. If it is the noises he is worried about, you can purchase DVDs and recordings via iTunes of various socialisation sounds, including fireworks, and you can begin with those at an extremely extremely low noise, whilst you are doing your regular training - the idea is for him never to react or appear to notice them. Then you turn up slightly and so on....
Here's the course for you guys - starting 1st December and enrolling in 2 days time: https://fenzidogsportsacademy.com/index.php/courses/13929 I highly recommend all Fenzi Academy courses.
Thank you for your comments! I reckon it is (was) the smoke more than the noises but every evening he seemed to be slowly getting used to it. He stayed on the sofa all evening last night and only went to his crate when told - bed time. Also asked to go in the garden in the evening (there is no light there) by tapping on the door. Those previous two/three days you could tell something was really bothering him, today he seemed much happier! Hubby just got back from their evening walk and he was back to his normal self. Didn’t have to call him to go out, he was there waiting! Fingers crossed that’s the end of it!! Possibly we will ever know what really scared him that night but it was very upsetting to see him like that!
Unfortunately that’s not the end of our problems with Roger. We’re going to see the vets on Monday but perhaps someone experienced something similar. He started reacting to every single noise - ripping paper, cardboard, something dropping on the floor - whenever it happens he goes straight into his crate. The last few days he spent most of the days in his crate. He still eats well, loves his walks and playtime but just won’t spend time with us (I mean stay in the same room) unless it’s food or walk time or when someone comes back home from being outside. I’m worried sick! Don’t know if that’s normal, is it a phase or whether he’s in pain etc..
It is rare that things stop if they are as you described, so I didn't think that would be the end of it. It's a shame that it is now too late to enrol for the Fenzi Academy course, as it has closed for enrolment. IT focuses exclusively on noise sensitivity and has a week by week training programme to working through it and would have been ideal.
I understand the course is in US. We live in UK so wouldn’t be able to attend anyway. We found some YouTube videos how to deal with it and hopefully by slowly getting him used to the noises we will eventually help him getting over it.
Hi @Roger, I believe the courses are on-line courses or using older terminology, by correspondence. You don't have to live in the US to do the course. It is also my understanding that in some of the courses you film your dog and the instructor evaluates what you are doing by watching the film. As an important aside, @Jo Laurens and I have requested some owners to post video links to this site. One of the problems in trying to evaluate what is happening based on an owner's description is that the narrative is filtered. The owner reports only what what they perceive as being important. But sometimes that is insufficient. We owners are too close to the problem and as result may fail to see what is really going on. I wish more members on this site would use film of their dog's problems, (or of their successes, and how they achieved them).
Oh I didn’t realise that! It would have been ideal then! Thanks @Michael A Brooks @Jo Laurens was that course a one off? Or do you know when the next one is going to be? Finding a dog behaviourist in our area is almost impossible. Not that there aren’t any, there are just so few of them they’re full and don’t take new cases on . Also do you think we’ll be able to help him at home, without a professional? We’ve started playing him the ‘scary’ sounds super quiet at the moment and are dropping things in front of him, preparing him for it and giving him a treat after, only if he stays in the room. So he starts seeing the noises as something nice. That’s what we’ve been advised and read on internet.
It probably won't be a one-off as the Fenzi courses (if they are popular) reoccur. You need to check the Fenzi website on the link I gave you above to see the schedule for the upcoming terms. I would not recommend dropping things on the floor and only giving him a treat if he doesn't leave the room. It is really important with noise sensitivity that you NEVER see signs of fear from the dog, or you will just consolidate the fear. So you need to keep every noise you make well under threshold for what he can tolerate. You also need to devise some form of 'treat party' or 'amazingness session', which should follow on from every noise. Just one treat isn't going to cut it... This is the Fenzi method they use on that course.
I was reading about the meaning of threshold, but I’m not sure if I understand it correctly. Below threshold - does it mean when he’s fine? And not fearful? Or did I get it completely wrong? So @Jo Laurens are you saying treat after every noise? What if it’s sudden? My baby tends to be dropping things on the floor all the time. Do I follow Roger if he runs away as a reaction? Do I leave him? So many different opinions when you read on internet! He’s going to the vets today as we’ve discovered a lump on his lip so need to get it checked and hopefully the vet will recommend a trainer who can help us! As I’m worried that without knowing exactly what to do we will make more harm than good.
Yes that's correct. Below threshold means he is calm, loose body, relaxed ears, smiling mouth, tail hanging down loose, able to hear your cues and carry them out. Think of yourself the first time you drove a manual car. If you had been asked to drive on the M1 I'd bet you would have been above threshold. So your teacher would have had you drive on your first lesson on a relatively quiet road. The idea is to keep the dog below threshold, that he is rewarded for being calm around loud noises. I will go no further because you have asked Jo a question.
I’ve asked Jo, as from what i understand she suggested to reward Roger even if he doesn’t stay in the room where the noise has happened and that’s a new one for us as we were reading not to do that. As that will be (from what we were reading) like telling him it’s ok to be scared and we don’t want that (?) do we want that?? Not sure what to think anymore. I’d really appreciate your opinion too. Our vet suggested the Adaptil plug in diffuser and we’re collecting it from him tomorrow. And that was all really. But we really want to carry on working with Roger to make sure he gets all the help he needs but we’re more and more confused on what to do.
Hi @Roger @Jo Laurens can speak for herself and I'm sure she will clarify when the Earth spins a bit more and Jersey Island is basked in sunlight. The idea of noise sensitivity training is to keep the dog below threshold and reward the dog for displaying calm signals when and if the dog is confronted by the trigger. One gradually increases the volume of the noise and as long as the dog remains below threshold you reward the dog for displaying calm signals. Consequently, you either have to move the dog away from the noise (to reduce the decibels) or you have to control the decibel level of the noise. If you are just dropping things on the floor, then you have no real way of controlling the volume nor where it is going to land and roll. As you can see you really do need to be able to read your dog's body language. And you need to be able to control the trigger. It is sometimes hard to read a dog's body language, when you standing next to the dog. I suggest you film him and watch his behaviour. Lip licking, for example, can be quick and you may miss such signs of anxiety while you are doing the desensitisation. You will get better at reading dog language. The book on BAT 2.0 by Grisha Stewart has some excellent material on dog body language. (And lots of useful information about lead control--it's an excellent book). It is not a necessity but since you appear to be really interested in dog training, it is a useful book to read. Please go to the thread https://thelabradorforum.com/threads/sounds-scary-resources-now-available-free-from-dogstrust.11810/ There on that thread is a helpful booklet in which the vets associated with the Dog Trust explain how to desensitise a dog to various noises. Some of the noise sensitivity training is generally not successful. It is hard to imitate a real thunderstorm with just a stereo. And the dogs do not feel any pressure waves and know it's fake. But things like falling pots and pans and such are things that can be desensitised successfully.
Hi @Roger With the goal of a picture capturing a thousand words. I decided to draw a diagram of below and above threshold. The red curve shows a hypothetical relationship between a dog's level of fear and the strength of the trigger. Over the range OA, the dog has no fear to the trigger. Over the range FA of the trigger, the dog experiences fear but we can't observe it with our naked eye. At level F and beyond, the dog displays fear in ways that we trainers can readily observe. The idea in desensitisation training is to keep the dog below threshold-that is, keep the level of the trigger sufficiently low so that the dog does not display any signs associated with fear/anxiety. And reward the dog for the smallest sign of calming behaviour.
Oops. The description is confusing. Here is a corrected version. Over the range OA, the dog has no fear to the trigger. Over the range AT1 of the trigger, the dog experiences some degree of fear but we can't observe it with our naked eye. At level T1 and beyond, the dog displays fear in ways that we trainers can readily observe.
