I took the dogs on a walk this evening which is a regular one, but one we've not done in a while. About 2km of this walk is through a dense wood. It's a narrow path (about 2 feet wide for most of the way), with a river on one side and a steep bank, leading into the forest, on the other side. I was doing my normal "one dog on, one dog off", but as soon as we hit this section, Shadow, who was the one off-lead at that point, kept on smelling something really good in the woods and a couple of times hooned after it. Happily, he shot back as soon as I recalled, but I'm not happy with him chasing things, so he went on the lead and Willow was off. At first, Shadow was still momentously distracted by the smells. Every time his nose started going, I'd stop (if he hadn't already) and wait. At first, this was for several minutes, but as soon as he looked at me, I marked and rewarded. After a while, he got the idea and started looking back a lot more quickly. By the end of this section of walk, he was sniffing and looking back immediately. Great progress, but it could just be that the smells there weren't quite as enticing as the ones earlier on, so I'm not sitting on my laurels just yet. So, my plan is to go and do this walk again a couple more times in the next couple of days, while the smells are still there. I'm guessing it's probably deer. I'll just do exactly the same as I have done today, and hope progress continues well, but where do I go from there? My thought is using a long-line, to give him a bit more independence and distance but I would need some guidance on how to go about using it. The end result I'm after - which I realise may be a long time in the future! - is a dog that won't run after these smells at all and will stick to the path. I am confident that I can call him back when he starts running, and I can call him to me even when I catch him starting to scent something, but I would like to end up where he doesn't need that intervention. Willow is easy - she knows I'm more interesting than anything else around - but, sadly, Shadow has a much stronger desire to chase than she does and those occasional smells are beyond my regular repertoire of tricks for him.
I have a similar thing with Charlie, we've got the "run offs" reduced, but it's still something he does. It's sometimes the scent of wildlife, but more often water (he can smell a river, stream, gravel pit or pond a mile off), rarely these days other distractions. Thankfully, the good thing about water is he quits and comes back after he has thrown himself in it a few times (it's not all that safe though ). I honestly think that I am not going to get him to be free and not do it. I can reduce his desire to do it, by increasing his desire to stick close to me in case I do something interesting, but if he isn't under orders, then it's always something that is going to be a risk. Under orders is walking at heel off lead, so I view it as a proofing thing. I need to proof that cue...
Meh, I don't want to hear that, Julie Come on, I need some of your normal fabulous advice (that is often along the lines of "use your brain, woman!", but phrased much more tactfully) that tells me that this can be fixed, in time and with patience. but, I suppose it's not all doom and gloom. I don't want to have my dogs glued to my heel at all times, but Shadow does give strong indicators when the scents are around, so as long as I recognise them and proof, proof, proof my heel cue, I can just call him to heel until the distraction is over. Well, you know how much we're enjoying our heel work at the moment, anyway... Actually, now you mention it, the draw of water is very strong for Willow, although only if it's pretty close already. I hadn't thought (see the "use your brain, woman!" comment above) of treating that behaviour of hers with the chase instincts of Shadow, but, yes, they are very, very similar and can be tackled in the same way.
We have deer and lots of other wildlife in our woods. I always reward them really well when they stay within 20m of me. The few times they have hared after deer were when we could actually see the deer, so I knew the trigger. They didn't find it at all rewarding to chase them (no chance of catching them) the same with squirrels and birds, they still chase them - but very half heartedly. My rewards (treats, praise and lots of toy chasing) are much more rewarding to them. I always let them both off together. I still do a lot of hiding so that they are never sure where I am and have to keep a close eye on me. Twiglet has learned this so well that I can't stop to take a video without her coming to sit by my feet. I was trying to get a video of them hoolying in the woods yesterday, but I couldn't stop as she just came straight back. I will try to do one walking along next time
I know you don't want to hear that - neither did I.... I think it's right though, unfortunately. If you have a dog with an urge to run off to stuff - and it doesn't really matter what that stuff is, anything that is a terrific temptation for the dog - then I honestly think the cue "generally hang around quite close to me" which is what we reward by the "keeping our dogs close" techniques is not going to be specific enough, or even strong enough, in all situations. But it can work in lots and lots of situations. It's far from doom and gloom though! There is nothing wrong with being able to call your dog back and then have him walk at heel until the distractions reduce. Quite frankly, that's a brilliant achievement if you manage it and I hope I get a way along that journey. If you think about people working their dogs, their dogs might bumble along at times when it's ok to do so, but in situations of really high distractions, their dogs are at heel, told to stay, or on a lead. They are not doing the "generally just hang around" thing. Proofing "at heel" or "sit/stay" is how people manage their dogs when going shooting for example. The dogs are under orders...
I'm the wrong girl Fiona,I'll be interested to read any suggestions.....I survive Dexter's chase instinct through vigilance ......I watch him like a hawk and the terrain like a hawk...but it's a very precarious method and I wish we were better.When he stands still and his nose goes up in the air I am able to get his attention.....I haven't trained that ,it must have possibly come by default When I was training his recall.....if he does ignore me ,saying ' look at me ' or 'what have I got' will get his attention and he will come in the hope of something tasty or something rabbit skin being produced from about my person ....However if he sees a deer move I have nothing in my arsenal ,even if he was right by my side he'd go....If he's close to me ,really close and I'm quick enough I do get a sit on my stop whistle ....but I've got a nanosecond to grab before he's off ...he's sat before then shot off when he sees movement.....I know it's my bad.....not nailing it better I sometimes feel Dexter's prey drive would have him chasing a blowing leaf if he was left to his own devices!
Hehe, blowing leaves were a big distraction not all that long ago I think for a dog with a strong instinct to chase, like Shadow, the actual act of chasing is rewarding, so it doesn't matter if he actually catches it or not. The books talk about it being an increase in adrenaline and endorphine release during a chase that makes the chase rewarding and can make it addictive. So, we need to restrict it, or redirect it. Rewarding a recall from a chase with a game of chase (with a ball, for example, or a game of whipit) has made a massive difference to Shadow's recall (and, similarly, his stop); he wants to chase and, to be perfectly honest, it doesn't seem to matter much what he is chasing. Willow, in comparison, is always very half-hearted about chasing animals. She just doesn't have that same drive to hunt down her lunch. Maybe because she is more motivated by food, and knows that it's guaranteed if she stays close to me! Having said that, she does enjoy playing with a ball, too, so that has worked on her recall and stop as well as Shadow's. Walking with one dog on and one dog off-lead is a tactic I've been using for a couple of weeks now, specifically to address the chasing. It seems that, when they are off together, they do hunt a lot more; in Shadow's case, for something to chase (although, to be fair, this is a fairly recent phenomenon) and, in Willow's case, for something disgusting to eat. As soon as one is on lead, the other automatically stays closer and more engaged; I suppose the desire to be connected with the pack is strong. This isn't to say that they get no time off-lead together. It's lovely to see them running around together, but it's in specific, flat and open places where I know they will just run around and play together rather than start getting into mischief. I know I'm making this sound like this is a massive problem, and it's really not; it's only every now and again. They are generally both really good at staying close and engaged with me for the duration of a walk, but I'm very much of the opinion that it's better to address and train against a problem such as running off after something, rather than try and avoid those situations. I'm already remarkably happy with how far we've come, just being able to get them to come back to me when in mid-flight. I just don't want the chasing to become worse, if it really is so self-rewarding, and nipping it in the bud and refocussing it before the chase happens seems like a good idea. Very true, but it's something I internally struggle with. My human instinct is that keeping the dog under orders at all time, every single minute you're away from home, is somehow depriving them of "being a dog". It's like us being at work all the time, even when we're on holiday. On the other hand, I know how much they love to be directed and trained; and, actually, when they are mooching about under their own devices, they are working, just for themselves and not for us. So, as long as we keep the interest levels up, and don't simply plod on a track for an hour, expecting the dog to walk at heel besides us for that entire time, then there's nothing at all wrong with expecting them to be doing what we ask of them the entire time; we're just directing their hunting skills onto stuff we want them to do. Of course, that makes it a lot harder work for us as handlers, too! As a pet owner, I do want to be able to go on the occasional long hike where I'm enjoying the scenery and not having to keep my dogs occupied at all times - to let them do their own thing without worrying that that will be something inappropriate. But I'm more than happy that the vast majority of our time together is spent working towards that goal. One day, maybe....
Of course, your dog doesn't have to be under orders all the time, they can mooch about where it's safe to do so. But getting a dog with high predatory drive to mooch about in a field full of rabbits/deer/whatever (footballs for Charlie) ignoring all the rabbits/deer/footballs is a tall order - and I'd say you have to start with a dog that doesn't have a high interest in chasing rabbits/deer/footballs. It's also fine if you are able to stop and recall your dog in full predatory chase flight. That is difficult to do though, with a dog that is really driven. Fantastic if you can though. But then what? If you are still in the field of rabbits/deer/whatever. You can't repeatedly let your dog start a chase and then stop him. At some point, your stop will just fail under that much pressure. So, I can't see an alternative to: dog is mooching around staying close - might chase - call dog back - put dog under orders (or on a lead) until back to safe mooching place...
Brods has a very strong hunt/chase drive, and mooching about can only happen in low distraction areas (no wildlife). On the odd occasion when I've missed his cues and he's got off on a chase (of pheasants), when he comes back he looks completely insane, eyes sort of unfocused, massive panting, unable to refocus back on me for a good while. I think the adrenaline/endorphine release in a chase motivated dog makes the chase the ultimate prize, any catch is sort of secondary. Brods can't mooch in pheasant/wildlife territory, he has to be under orders and staying close being busy with me. We were walking with one of his dog pals the other day and I realised just how scent orientated he was, they were both bumbling along the same path while I chatted with Lucy's owner. Lucy bumbled over a piece of ground happily, Brods came to same spot, Kerpang, nose slammed to the ground and he picked up a scent and was off, it wildly excited as a Pheasant shot up in the air a few feet away from him. Lucy just looked at him in mild amazement, she had totally missed the scent, or maybe picked it up but wasn't interested, whatever the reason having a dog with a strong hunt/chase drive doesn't lend itself to much mooching in High Population Danger Areas!!
Ooh I have managed to do this with Hattie quite a few times with Pheasants, Rabbits, Hare and once with a herd of 25 Deer that I hadn't spotted , she started to chase I blew my stop whistle, she stopped immediately, I recalled her where upon she sat next to me off lead whilst I fed her treats and we watched the deer until they were out of sight then we just continued to walk and she never attempted to re-chase or budge from a sit/wait. It is all about timing though and a dog that would sell her soul for a crumb also helps! Charlie is a bit like Brods, very little mooching but he does manage it sometimes, but he is another kettle of fish and with a weak stop whistle there's little chance of Hattie's success but we have managed to recall him mid chase of a Pheasant with success. They are all so different. xx
Yup, this is my fear. Which is why he ended up on lead sharpish when I realised that there was something really good in the woods for an extended section, not just a random one-off. He is very strong at the stop and recall at the moment, but I know I'd completely destroy it if I were to just keep on letting him run off and me stop him, and I want to avoid that at all costs. Stop and recall are so important for safety, no way I'm compromising that.
Very sensible. Look, I think you have to count your blessings here - if you have a high drive dog given to chasing stuff yet you can stop and recall him...even if you have to then pop him on his lead for a bit, that's still bloomin' fantastic.
What she said ^^^ The other good thing about a bit of lead time is it gives you both a break. You to chill a bit ready for the next bit of handling/training you want to do and the dogs learn it as a cue aswell a bit like a settle cue "nothing exciting is going to happen so relax"
