Re: A RECALL Question Interestingly Helen an experienced HPR person commented on the Positive Gundogs FB page that his dogs need some time settle down when they first start to hunt so not to be too hard on them. When you consider his dogs will have been trained from very early on I think that this period may be equivalent to Charlie's burn off....also he would expect his dogs to range up to 300 yards on open ground. Which would be beyond comprehension for a spaniel or labrador handler really. The setters and pointers really do work at much bigger distances.... Charlie is probably operating well within his comfort zone in terms of breed characteristics for a pointer..... : : :
Re: A RECALL Question [quote author=JulieT link=topic=7668.msg107154#msg107154 date=1409906886] If Charlie has "gone" I have a much, much, better chance with my stop whistle than my recall. If I won't even chance my stop, I wait until he has got to wherever it is he is going (other dog etc) and finished his run out, then use my recall. [/quote] Same here. If Tarka sees a deer, I can recall her before the chase starts, but if she's off like a rocket I am much more likely to get a response to a stop whistle. I think this is because the stop whistle has become very ingrained in Tarka as meaning something really rewarding is about to happen, namely I'm probably going to tell you to hunt for a bird at this point. I understand that the stop does not have the same association with Charlie though, despite your best efforts. When Tarka was at the stage Charlie is at now, like you I was cautious about using my recall whistle. I went for what Barbara has suggested, recalls put in only at moments of distraction - slowing for a fence, river etc on the outrun and only when she was reasonably close to me at the start. Perhaps if you start putting a recall in initially as soon as you unclip the lead so he learns he comes back but then is instantly released to do what Charlie does best - run! So a recall is not the end of free running. Then gradually chip away letting him move 1m away, 2m, 5m etc always getting the recall in before he sets off at full tilt. Good luck!
Re: A RECALL Question [quote author=bbrown link=topic=7668.msg107178#msg107178 date=1409913112] Interestingly Helen an experienced HPR person commented on the Positive Gundogs FB page that his dogs need some time settle down when they first start to hunt so not to be too hard on them. When you consider his dogs will have been trained from very early on I think that this period may be equivalent to Charlie's burn off....also he would expect his dogs to range up to 300 yards on open ground. Which would be beyond comprehension for a spaniel or labrador handler really. The setters and pointers really do work at much bigger distances.... Charlie is probably operating well within his comfort zone in terms of breed characteristics for a pointer..... : : : [/quote] That's interesting Barbara and confirms everything I have been reading about Pointers. Charlie definitely behaves more like a Pointer than a Labrador so we have had to train ourselves to let him behave like one to get the best from him. He does range further on open ground than any dog I have ever met and I still find that scary BUT he comes back and we don't have to recall him. Hmm maybe I should join a Pointer forum ;D x
Re: A RECALL Question [quote author=Lochan link=topic=7668.msg107183#msg107183 date=1409913994] [quote author=JulieT link=topic=7668.msg107154#msg107154 date=1409906886] If Charlie has "gone" I have a much, much, better chance with my stop whistle than my recall. If I won't even chance my stop, I wait until he has got to wherever it is he is going (other dog etc) and finished his run out, then use my recall. [/quote] Same here. If Tarka sees a deer, I can recall her before the chase starts, but if she's off like a rocket I am much more likely to get a response to a stop whistle. I think this is because the stop whistle has become very ingrained in Tarka as meaning something really rewarding is about to happen, namely I'm probably going to tell you to hunt for a bird at this point. I understand that the stop does not have the same association with Charlie though, despite your best efforts. When Tarka was at the stage Charlie is at now, like you I was cautious about using my recall whistle. I went for what Barbara has suggested, recalls put in only at moments of distraction - slowing for a fence, river etc on the outrun and only when she was reasonably close to me at the start. Perhaps if you start putting a recall in initially as soon as you unclip the lead so he learns he comes back but then is instantly released to do what Charlie does best - run! So a recall is not the end of free running. Then gradually chip away letting him move 1m away, 2m, 5m etc always getting the recall in before he sets off at full tilt. Good luck! [/quote] I assume you mean my Charlie and not Julie's? If I could just get the stop whistle at any distance this would help us endlessly but so far only whilst walking along, at gates, stiles etc. and that's after 14 months : Maybe it will come in time. Unclipping the lead is too risky for a recall as we are eating his dirt immediately If we are successful at recalling 1m etc. after a burn off with slow increases in distance then we could try after unclipping the lead at 1m and repeat the process :-\
Re: A RECALL Question [quote author=charlie link=topic=7668.msg107189#msg107189 date=1409915039] Unclipping the lead is too risky for a recall as we are eating his dirt immediately [/quote] Could you change this bit, I wonder? Even if at first you get only 1 second between his lead off and release cue? Then try to build it up so he waits to be told to go? I sort of think it might help. If he starts off waiting and listening?
Re: A RECALL Question [quote author=JulieT link=topic=7668.msg107192#msg107192 date=1409916495] [quote author=charlie link=topic=7668.msg107189#msg107189 date=1409915039] Unclipping the lead is too risky for a recall as we are eating his dirt immediately [/quote] Could you change this bit, I wonder? Even if at first you get only 1 second between his lead off and release cue? Then try to build it up so he waits to be told to go? I sort of think it might help. If he starts off waiting and listening? [/quote] I agree with Julie. When you take the lead off and he goes off like the clappers you have already lost him mentally and a recall would be impossible. When I take the lead off, my dogs will sit and look at me and wait to be told either to walk to heel, to retrieve, to start to hunt or to run free. But they can't just go off deciding for themselves to burn some rubber. ;D
Re: A RECALL Question How about this, Charlie sits with lead off and look at me for just a second then release word "OK" and build up the time slowly? ???
Re: A RECALL Question Yes, exactly. Choc Charlie had his "wait" cue, and at first I would have to have a finger under his collar, then he would "wait" without me touching him, so I could reward wait (lead off meant wait for a tasty treat) and then I built it up to not always saying "go free" after wait. I started to ask him to do other things before he got "go free".
Re: A RECALL Question Same here....Riley used to reverse out of his slip lead and leg it. I was resoundingly told off at a training weekend for allowing such behaviour We worked on him waiting a lot......he's pretty good now ;D Someone once suggested attaching several leads to your dog and taking one off at a time....so the dog loses track of if they are on or off lead.....then when you're ready you can take the last one off and release them. No idea if it works but I can see the logic ;D
Re: A RECALL Question That is how I would go about it, Helen. But if possible, I wouldn't make it so that he is sitting on hot coals waiting for your OK, it would be better if he is waiting for whatever command you give next, be that 'heel' or 'OK go run' or even 'sit'. I understand that wouldn't happen overnight - it's just you might be in the situation where you let him off the lead and then suddenly notice a hare in the long grass... and any sound you make will send him charging off. Ultimately, what Heidrun has just described would be much better. But for now, if you could get him to sit for a second before you send him, and then slowly build that time up, I think it would be great.
Re: A RECALL Question [quote author=charlie link=topic=7668.msg107196#msg107196 date=1409917601] How about this, Charlie sits with lead off and look at me for just a second then release word "OK" and build up the time slowly? ??? [/quote] I think so too Karen, slowly but surely is the way x
Re: A RECALL Question milly does bomb off when i take her lead off but she has good recall nearly all the time i have always had problems where she runs up to other dogs most times if she sees a dog she goes flat on her belly then runs up to the dog but as i have always called her away by saying this way and have treats she comes with me when ever she is running in the woods i call her to me and sometimes give treat but not always i think labs and any similar breeds need plenty of off lead running i certainly know milly is very hyper if we dont go out rarely but odd days when we dont
Re: A RECALL Question [quote author=sussex link=topic=7668.msg107668#msg107668 date=1410075323] i think labs and any similar breeds need plenty of off lead running [/quote] Charlie is a slightly "different" case, he is a rescue dog that we got at 9 months old and he had zero recall, we have had to keep him on a long training line to establish a recall which has taken a very long time, and a huge amount of training, he is now 3 years old and is now getting some off lead time.
Re: A RECALL Question Interesting discussion! I think the idea about having Charlie wait for even a second and give him a release is a good one. Anytime they are looking to you for direction as opposed to taking matters into their own paws is a good thing, I think. I have never tried to recall Simba while he's in full steam ahead run away mode. I doubt it would work... :
Re: A RECALL Question [quote author=bbrown link=topic=7668.msg107178#msg107178 date=1409913112] Interestingly Helen an experienced HPR person commented on the Positive Gundogs FB page that his dogs need some time settle down when they first start to hunt so not to be too hard on them. When you consider his dogs will have been trained from very early on I think that this period may be equivalent to Charlie's burn off....also he would expect his dogs to range up to 300 yards on open ground. Which would be beyond comprehension for a spaniel or labrador handler really. The setters and pointers really do work at much bigger distances.... Charlie is probably operating well within his comfort zone in terms of breed characteristics for a pointer..... : : : [/quote] As an ex HPR owner, I guess it is Charlie's genes to run fast to 300 yards or so, as that is what they do. However, they do then turn to hunt back the other way, they hunt the wind. Instead of trying to teach Charlie a recall when he is like that, how about a 'turn' whistle? I used to blow the whistle twice 'toot toot' for the turn, this brings them back across you or back from in front, it all depends on the wind direction. You would then feel you have control over him.
Re: A RECALL Question My Charlie is a soft, choc, show lab - it's not possible to even remotely associate him with the term "hard hunting dog" (madness around balls and dummies aside). I've no excuses on recall - I had a copy of Total Recall before he even came home. Poor boy did exercise one at 7 weeks and 5 days old. : Even so, I would only try my recall when he is heading away from me at a determined speed when he was very close to me - a stop is much, much, more likely to work. To get a running in full flight dog to stop, and then turn away from whatever it is he wants, and then head away from what he wants, and then come to a halt so freedom is over, all on a single command, is a pretty tall order I think. Stop - and something good will happen - is much more realistic, as is change direction as Stacia suggests.
Re: A RECALL Question We had an interesting session yesterday where it was pointed out that I had effectively sent Riley for a retrieve with my body language long before I actually gave him any command. It was suggested that I change the process I go through as I prepare to send him to lower his level of stimulation. It made me think a little of you and Charlie and I wondered if you could change the way you approach a release.......I was told watch Riley for a raise in tension levels....blimey he was like a coiled spring! When I stepped away from him it was obvious how he'd pretty much already gone in his head, any movement even a finger twitch sent him on his way! It's definitely worth working on this I think.....lots of luck ;D
Re: A RECALL Question [quote author=Stacia link=topic=7668.msg107866#msg107866 date=1410166308] [quote author=bbrown link=topic=7668.msg107178#msg107178 date=1409913112] Interestingly Helen an experienced HPR person commented on the Positive Gundogs FB page that his dogs need some time settle down when they first start to hunt so not to be too hard on them. When you consider his dogs will have been trained from very early on I think that this period may be equivalent to Charlie's burn off....also he would expect his dogs to range up to 300 yards on open ground. Which would be beyond comprehension for a spaniel or labrador handler really. The setters and pointers really do work at much bigger distances.... Charlie is probably operating well within his comfort zone in terms of breed characteristics for a pointer..... : : : [/quote] As an ex HPR owner, I guess it is Charlie's genes to run fast to 300 yards or so, as that is what they do. However, they do then turn to hunt back the other way, they hunt the wind. Instead of trying to teach Charlie a recall when he is like that, how about a 'turn' whistle? I used to blow the whistle twice 'toot toot' for the turn, this brings them back across you or back from in front, it all depends on the wind direction. You would then feel you have control over him. [/quote] He does turn to go back the other way, so yes he must use the wind. We use 2 peeps for a recall though. I think it must be pretty difficult to train a turn whistle, I wouldn't even know where to start with wind direction etc. [quote author=bbrown link=topic=7668.msg107868#msg107868 date=1410168551] We had an interesting session yesterday where it was pointed out that I had effectively sent Riley for a retrieve with my body language long before I actually gave him any command. It was suggested that I change the process I go through as I prepare to send him to lower his level of stimulation. It made me think a little of you and Charlie and I wondered if you could change the way you approach a release.......I was told watch Riley for a raise in tension levels....blimey he was like a coiled spring! When I stepped away from him it was obvious how he'd pretty much already gone in his head, any movement even a finger twitch sent him on his way! It's definitely worth working on this I think.....lots of luck ;D [/quote] I assume you mean my Charlie Barbara not Julie's? Charlie is always like a coiled spring, so we should just take a step sideways and wait a second before releasing him and slowly increase the time? Thanks all for your help. x
Re: A RECALL Question Oh yes I did mean your Charlie Helen I think it's worth working on, exactly how you do it may need a little trial and error though as he is always so poised to go..... I would probably try a couple of things.... have two people there. The one who's going to give him the verbal release "go play" or whatever you choose should step away....give the command and then the person restraining him should let him off the lead. This would use the "new command then old command" approach. The new command is verbal, the old one is the removal of his lead. Eventually you can try and reverse the order...remove lead, hold collar, "go play", then hold the collar more gently etc. If there's only one of you then two leads might be better....Your usual lead and one end of a line or lead threaded through his collar. Then when you unclip his usual lead you still have hold of him. You can drop one end of the line and just let it run through his collar when you're ready.....or the same principle leave a very short line on his collar that he can run around with, just enough to hold onto but not enough to snag any where. I might also try just stopping for a chat or a sit down before letting him go.....just to say to him it's not time yet, just chill until we're ready I think the reason I thought of you yesterday was I thought Riley was actually fairly steady but David showed me how poised he was. I could only really watch him when I was slightly further away from him. I need to work on maintaining that focus whilst decreasing the impulse to go. My body language and the process that goes before the retrieve is a big part of that. Lots of work to do here
Re: A RECALL Question [quote author=charlie link=topic=7668.msg107869#msg107869 date=1410169819] I think it must be pretty difficult to train a turn whistle, I wouldn't even know where to start with wind direction etc. [/quote] It's easy. Forget about wind etc. - worry about that later. I've heard two ways to train the turn whistle (there are probably lots more). One is to take advantage of the dog following you when you move away. The other is to use food. I'd try food with your Charlie. The advantage of the turn whistle is it signals "continuation" - and so it is less punishing for the dog than a recall (which involves the dog stopping, this isn't a good thing in a dog's mind). You basically get the dog "yo-yoing" in front of you by throwing food - as the dog "gets" the game and you can yo-yo the dog who is chasing the food, you associate the turn with a cue - your change direction whistle. Don't feed on arrival, throw the food, even if you use a clicker.
