Hello Everyone So, I'm new here, but I've been reading as a non-member for a few weeks and I'm really grateful for all the fantastic advice I've read and some of those stories people have posted that make me realise my little madam is quite normal! Thank you! I've had Bonnie for 6 weeks now - a black lab, just turned 16 weeks - and she's an absolute delight. For the most part her training is going really well. Some things she does brilliantly (recall is amazing, especially when we're out in the open and she's off the lead, she waits for her food, toilet training was a breeze, walking to heel is starting to kick in now [with a few treats to aid us along the way] ).... however.....!!!! there are some things she and I are really struggling with...! And I mean, REALLY struggling !! I would say she's a very strong-willed pup, compared to other dogs I've had in the past and dogs I know. Luckily I work from home and have had a lot of time to devote to repetition, persistence, correcting, praising, new training - I think without this she would have been a real handful!!! She's very vocal too and makes all these strange throat-noises that are so, so, so cute. She even makes them in her sleep. They also help to tell me what she's thinking. There's a different noise for toilet, food, I'm bored etc. And other feelings. For instance, if I want to put on her lead and she doesn't want to, I get an accompanying noise which I can only describe in human terms as a defiant, "I'm not doing that!" If I stop her from doing something she really wants to do, I get snarls, growls, whinges and some biting if my hand is involved (to obstruct the piece of torn carpet, for instance!) - occasionally we have a defiant bark or two! So, yes, a real strong-willed madam! This came to a head yesterday when we attended a puppy socialisation class. At 16 weeks I wondered if she was a bit old and she's very well-socialised in the woods where we go which is a real dog-walking wood! However, the vet said it would be okay, so we gave it a try. Oh boy, we were a nightmare! We really upset the rest of the class. :-[ When confronted with an indoor situation and loads of other dogs she wasn't allowed to play with until instructed, I couldn't control her at all. The trainer was quite irritated by us. Bonnie wouldn't sit, stay, kept pulling at her lead to get to the other pups (all of whom were much younger and a lot of toy dogs too!) ... eventually she started barking and howling. I could see she was getting upset and dehydrated and her eyes started to go red. I asked for some water but was refused it (can't believe that to be honest) so we left. I didn't want to sit there and upset the other pups and owners and I was really concerned about Bonnie being anxious. I came home and felt like such a failure. :-[ So ... what to do? She's defiant and strong willed with a tendency towards anxiety. I use, "no", a loud stern "no" and then clapping my hands loudly if we're really in a pickle. For the most part she's learning but if there's something she really DOESN'T want to do, I don't feel I'm able to control her at all. I wonder if she gets too much of my attention? It's just the two of us and we're in the same space all day (or out walking)... we do visit the family and other friends but she's so excitable on these occasions, they're hard. Now she's getting bigger I'm not sure I want her around children until her behaviour improves. I think children and other dogs are a real distraction for her. Has anyone else had this experience? I've got friends coming to stay and I'm ever so concerned about the situation. I love her to bits and can't imagine my life without her. I'm just concerned there's something I'm doing wrong that is exacerbating her defiance and that it might be a monster trait that grows! Many thanks Bonnie's mum!
Re: A strong-willed, little madam! Hi Bonnies mum and welcome! Sounds like you have done a great job with her, as you will know from the posts, some of us still struggle with toilet training among other things. The puppy class sounds a nightmare, I'd give it a miss if I were you. Too many pups by the sounds of it, and refusing water is a bit bad. Izzy makes funny noises too, so sweet! Can't advise on the strong willed bit, Izzy is similar, as well as been to boisterous with our other dog, so looking for answers there too. She doesn't do what I tell her, as I think she thinks I'm just her pal, whereas my partner is definitely top dog!
Re: A strong-willed, little madam! Hello! A very warm welcome to the forum! Your puppy sounds normal, and your puppy class sounds rubbish. Good for you for leaving. Labrador puppies are often confident, over friendly, very boisterous young dogs. On the forum I'd say 95% of owners find their first puppy class is pretty much a disaster. Shame on the trainers for not being able to help in a constructive way. Try find another class. [quote author=Bonnie link=topic=9789.msg141728#msg141728 date=1423087464] I would say she's a very strong-willed pup, compared to other dogs I've had in the past and dogs I know. Luckily I work from home and have had a lot of time to devote to repetition....correcting So, yes, a real strong-willed madam! [/quote] You might want to consider whether that's true, or she is just a normal Labrador...she is a baby, far too young to be strong willed, or stroppy...she is more than likely just a normal puppy. [quote author=Bonnie link=topic=9789.msg141728#msg141728 date=1423087464] I use, "no", a loud stern "no" and then clapping my hands loudly if we're really in a pickle. [/quote] This is a bit old fashioned. . Loud, stern "no"s are a form of intimidation. It's much better to try to manage without punishment (aka corrections) and try to train an incompatible behaviour instead. So sit instead of jump up, wait instead of barge, and so on. Lots of articles on the main site to help with this.
Re: A strong-willed, little madam! Hi! Your puppy sounds very similar personality to mine!! Phoebe was a dream to toilet train, she is very quick to learn commands and has been brilliant at night from day 2. We have struggled with biting, jumping up and poo eating (still are). I find puppy classes very stressful although my trainer is excellent and we get a lot out of the class. Phoebe just wants to play and say hello to everyone and jump on the other puppies!! I spend the whole class trying to stop her pulling / jumping and she acts like she doesn't know anything!!! She is too excited to follow instruction and I find it very stressful and can't wait for it to finish!!! We have nearly finished the course now and I am going to leave it for a bit before thinking about anymore training (for my own sanity). I think it has still been worth it for socialisation and meeting puppies as there is always a chance at the class for the puppies to play (just not enough play for Phoebe!!). I would find a different class if I was you!!! But on the whole your puppy sounds completely normal!!!
Re: A strong-willed, little madam! Most people are embarrassed by their pups behavior at their first class. They are there to learn after all. Other pups were probably acting up but you will only have noticed yours. Saying "N0" to a pup doesn't really teach them anything. Far better to teach them something you do want. " Sit" is always useful. Having a dog whose bum slams down on the ground is very useful in so many situations.
Re: A strong-willed, little madam! Bailey at 7 months has only just started sit quietly in puppy class! Ours is outside, and the trainer says walk around and play whilst you wAiting, she has three labs, ! Maybe an outside class? But his impulse behaviour is till there, so he can only sit quietly for short time,! Puppy classes are stressful and I think puppy realises that! Also high value treats needed I take poached chicken breast! I'd find another class! Only last week after going for 3 months was the first time bailey did not jump up at trainer......... She wears a treat bag on her front!!!! Also are you sure she's stubborn and not just unsure what to do? She's still a baby! When bailey was younger he was more uncooperative when tired, do you leave her for a little while? Peacefully!
Re: A strong-willed, little madam! [quote author=Bonnie link=topic=9789.msg141728#msg141728 date=1423087464] I wonder if she gets too much of my attention? It's just the two of us and we're in the same space all day (or out walking)... we do visit the family and other friends but she's so excitable on these occasions, they're hard. Now she's getting bigger I'm not sure I want her around children until her behaviour improves. I think children and other dogs are a real distraction for her. [/quote] This is the same as my situation and I had/have the same worries, it's just Kenzi and I and I also work from home but i actually now think it helped stop some behaviour from ever starting, i.e. being able to say No or a distraction noise if she starts to do unwanted things, like in toilet training or maybe showing too much chewing interest in cables or furniture. You're going to worry regardless, if i didn't work from home i'd be concerned about leaving her, but Labs like companionship so think they'll always prefer the option of having someone around to play/train with or even sleep next to. Also like Kenzi as a young pup she's not going to want to stop doing something if she thinks it's fun, so it can seem like they're stubborn/defiant but really they just don't want the fun to end - you just have to walk away or find something more fun for her to do. Again though something that seems to fade over time at least it did for Kenz.
Re: A strong-willed, little madam! Oh thank you so much for all the fantastic replies. It's really reassuring to know I'm not the worst owner ever!! Wendy, I know exactly what you mean when you say Izzy sees you as a pal! When we visit households with men, Bonnie is so much more obedient to my dad, step-dad, brother etc.... So much for the sisterhood But being a pal isn't so bad - when we go out and about and there's a situation Bonnie is unsure of, she's right at my heel - you can trust your pals (even if you don't always agree with them!!) Julie, that was really interesting about my approach being old fashioned, I suppose (now I think of it) the stern no hasn't worked and only makes her more excited. I will follow your advice. I do wonder if the puppy trainer was having a bad day because the puppy class just wasn't helpful to us. We were the last to arrive; there was a circle of tiny toy pups all being shy and obedient and then in walks this 16 week bouncy lab.... : Maybe she thought she was in for an easy session and then we turned up! Haha! Oh dear! Jo, Molly, I'm pleased I'm not the only one who finds first pup class a tricky one! I'm glad we left, it was the right thing for my pup (and the others)... At first I thought maybe I just wasn't able to stick it. But, if we'd stayed, I think we'd just have been reinforcing some negative emotions and poor Bonnie, her eyes were really red! I guess I should have brought water. :-[ At first I was just going to take her outside for a bit of 'time ou't but the door was locked so we had to ask to leave. We've been working on not having to say hello to every single dog we meet in our own time. After all, it could be useful if we come across a particularly unfriendly pooch. We've started some "wait" training in earnest - so, in that way, the puppy class was a wake-up call that "wait" is not our strong point!!! But, in reality it is an artificial situation. Apart from at the vets, I can't see when we'd be in that situation again. She's honestly great outside. Petrina, you're right, she is still so young. She gets over excited in new situations (what youngster doesn't?!) .... I think where we go walking is great training as there's so many dogs, cyclists, walkers, so she gets an outside class every morning! And thanks for all the great advice, it's so good to know I'm not alone with this, I think I'm starting to bore friends and family with all my puppy fascination! ("Hey, how cute, Bonnie's started burying her chews." etc etc...!! ) Skootch, absolutely agree I'd be worrying about something else, if I was out and not at home! Oh well, at least it shows we care! 8) Is Kenzi more receptive to you if you've been out without her? I've noticed that if I've gone out for a couple of hours (mostly to buy more chews or kong filling ) when I come back, Bonnie is so glad to see me, she's more responsive to me. That's great advice about finding something more fun to do.... I'm pretty sure that that's why when I come home she's better, it's more interesting than being alone but if I'm there all day, I'm just part of the furniture.... and we know how puppies love to chew on their furniture!! Thanks for the great welcome, it's such a lovely community here. Look forward to more Labrador talking over the coming months (years!) ;D
Re: A strong-willed, little madam! Hello and welcome to the forum from Poppy and me! You've received great advice - Bonnie sounds lovely and I'm looking forward to seeing some photos.
Re: A strong-willed, little madam! Hi and welcome to the forum Nice to have you here. Bonnie really does sound perfectly normal. A baby Labrador's mission in life is to embarrass the humans at puppy class
Re: A strong-willed, little madam! Thanks Karen! My phone isn't great and so my photos are a bit blurry - I will try and get some better quality ones this weekend (courtesy of 15 year old niece with much better phone!) That made me laugh, Oberon. Bonnie succeeded in her mission then. I can only be but proud! ;D
Re: A strong-willed, little madam! I can leave the house for about 1min to go get something out of the car and she's more receptive when I come back and also acts like I've been gone for hours....labs eh...they can tell it's dinner time but they can't tell that you've only been out of sight for 60secs Re: training classes I can only echo what others have said, Labs are usually the most hyper and also the ones that constantly hoover the floor for any freebie treats they can find. However, if you stick with it and find a trainer(s) that understand labs then they will amaze you before you know it, I had a moment last week in class where she surprised the heck out of me with what she did and it definitely makes the effort worthwhile.
Re: A strong-willed, little madam! I can't add much to what has been said, but the reason we were told NO water at puppy class, which was held in the vets, is young excited pups can drink too quickly and may inhale some water , which could get in their lungs and cause problems later.
Re: A strong-willed, little madam! Hi and welcome I have recently taken Harley (18 months old) to adolescent training which took place outside. The trainer was brilliant - she has 2 labs herself if Harley was getting restless (this happened lots) we were able to have a short walk away/play for a few mins before rejoining the group. I would recommend researching trainers who are used to labs as they are bundles of energy
Re: A strong-willed, little madam! Hi and welcome Bonnie sounds a typical young lab, actually young pup. Normal behaviour not strong willed. I can empathise about the class. Meg (and previous dogs of mine) were like this and it takes a good trainer to facilitate that. I would suggest finding another class and sticking with it. Meg is 1 next week and we have been going since about 12 weeks. She has changed from a distractible fuss pot with the attention span of a flee to a dog that will now settle in class, take her turn to do each exercise and we nailed a 2 minute stay with doggy bedlam going on around us on Wednesday. Class has been great for all aspects of her life and I cant recommend getting to the right class highly enough Emma and Meg
Re: A strong-willed, little madam! This is so easy for me to relate to. Amber is strong willed, super intelligent and needs things to happen yesterday. She does defiant barking at us. She play bows, lunges forward, bites/mouths, barks and then repeats. That's just if we're sat on the sofa and she has other ideas. At 11 months old I thought we were passed this. She learns new behaviours quickly in general and toilet trained super fast. She's always been great overnight and at recall. Our major issues are still focus and self-rewarding behaviours like pulling on lead and jumping up at people. She was definitely the bruiser/clown of puppy class and the poor little shih tzu (and his elderly owners) were a bit put out by her. She out learned them every week and fortunately the trainer loves gun dogs and the other pup, a border collie, was a better match for her. I really need to invest a bit more time in her training over the next few months to iron out the issues I think. But it sounds to me like your puppy is totally normal, just a bit sharper than your average which has positives as well as some negatives.
Re: A strong-willed, little madam! I know exactly what you mean! My girl went to puppy classes from when she was 12 weeks and she was a little hooligan! She would run around like crazy, take treats from the trainer's table and often collide with other dogs. However, once puppy play finished and the training began she'd sit and listen nicely after the first 2 weeks. There were a lot of toy and small puppies in our class and luckily (after nearly sitting on one!) she learnt that they were a lot more fragile and actually lay down to play with them nicely. There was a sausage dog that she really liked and she'd just lay there and let him clamber all over her and then go and throw her weight into a German Shepherd. Labs are so boisterous and boundy when they're excited so it's completely normal for her to react like that and to want to go and do something no matter what you say. Unfortunately it seems like you had a bad trainer because a good trainer would know that it's typical to the breed or at least offer you one on one help if you needed it. The trainer should monitor her play and correct it if needed and not get annoyed. It's the trainers job to make sure your puppy knows how to behave with smaller dogs. Plus, I think all dog classes should provide a bowl or two of water and it's really shocking that they didn't! You probably got lucky by leaving. If you're worried about her becoming too attached to you and that she's becoming 'spoilt' because she always has you around then if you have a crate it would maybe be a good idea to crate her for an hour or so on her own every day. So that you can get a bit of you time and she can get a bit of time by herself. An hour isn't harmful to her and if you make sure she drinks before she goes in there and leave her with a little treat then she should soon get used to it. You might also prevent separation anxiety this way because if you need to leave for an emergency or something then you need to know that you can leave her and she won't tear up the house. She may also learn this way that YOU are the one in control of what she does. It's not harsh or cruel to crate her for an hour and the potential benefits are worth trying at least! She may howl a lot the first few times but if you persist then she'll get it. My girl loves going in her crate for an afternoon snooze ;D My girl also only understands 'no' when she wants to. I think it's just that stubborn puppy phase and it does wear off. She's getting so much better and more chilled now at 7 months. We take time to feed her through kongs or working for it and she knows that I'm the one who provides the food so it's best to keep on my good side. She still bites when excited but 99% of the time she gently holds my hand in her mouth so she's getting there. If things become really bad that she's still not listening to you trying to stop her doing something naughty then you can buy dog training discs. They make a noise when you drop them on the floor (not enough to drill fear into her!) and will likely distract the dog from doing what they were doing long enough for you to tell them no. Treat her when she stops doing it and after tearing your hair out for a while wishing it would work you should hopefully see results! Labs are just high energy bouncy puppies and they're far more hard work than people think but they DO calm down. Sorry I wrote an essay! Enjoy your girl and try not to worry about it. Other lab owners understand far too well what you're going through! There is a light at the end!
Re: A strong-willed, little madam! Wow, thanks for the further helpful tips in this thread. They're really valuable and I'm going to put them into practise! The things about the water is... I can completely understand not wanting bowls of water for a room full of pups to help themselves to (I'm sure we can all picture that puddily end result! : ) but I was asking for water for an anxious pup with red eyes and there must have been some in the building as it was a vets' practise. Oh well, I've already chalked up the whole experience as a bad experience!! :-X in the meantime.... I'm still having some issues with Bonnie and her strong-willed nature and it's really good to hear that she has a double somewhere in the world called Amber! 8) Actually, for me, things seem to be getting worse... Bonnie's started biting my legs in the last few days. Usually when I'm ignoring her (for instance when I'm cooking). But they're quite strong, attention-grabbing bites, so I'm getting concerned. I did most of the housework today as she bit and snapped at my hands and legs to get the feather duster/ duster/ soapy cloth etc..... I stopped lots to play with her, gave her a new chew toy, treats, lots of diversions....But eventually the distraction techniques wore off and she just bit me - really hard on the leg!!!! Oh dear, she is so lovely too; but I am starting to get a little frightened of her and fearful of how she'll be as she gets bigger! ??? She even plays aggressively with her toys (on her own and with me) ripping them to shreds or doing the death shake to the point of a force 10 gale!!! I can tell by her breathing that she's getting herself wound up. (I do take them away and swap for a treat and then calm her down) but I can't understand what's making her so grouchy in the first place!!! She has three walks a day - a long one in the morning, a shorter one at lunch and after dinner. She has lots of toys, I'm there to add a bit of interaction if she's getting bored with them and we do lots of fun training, so I don't think it's that she has too much energy...? I called a dog behaviourist yesterday as I couldn't calm her at all. She was tearing round the room.... round and round, banging into things and having anxious breathing. She'd been in the downstairs bathroom, nicked a couple of scented candles and chewed them up. I didn't tell her off, I just took them away and started clearing up the bits of debris - that's when she went nuts! Like she didn't want me to take them away. I even gave her a treat as I took them away. Sometimes it seems like she's scared of me, but I've never used any physical punishment on her and she's been with me since she was 10 weeks old. At other times, she seems to really trust me and we do have lots of fun training and with our walking. Oh bless her, I keep thinking what the hell's going to happen if she continues on this track.... :-\ I'm trying two more things that I saw on a programme last night. a) I'm going to stop all the baby-voice talking and always use a calm tone of voice with her. I think the baby-voice talking is lowering my status with her. b) I'm going to wait till she looks me in the eyes to give her a treat. I saw this on 6 Puppies and Us? Don't know if anyone else saw it or knows of it as a technique....? Anyway, we'll see how we get on. I really appreciate the opportunity to share and have advice!
Re: A strong-willed, little madam! You poor thing, you must be just a bit exhausted! She just sounds like a exuberant pup who is trying to get you involved in games - unfortunately in a puppy way by biting and bouncing (two things puppies do excel at!). When you were clearing up the debris she might have thought you were joining in the game, which got her more excited. Talking to her in a baby voice definitely won't have any bad affect on how she sees you. Dogs don't really see us as being in a status hierarchy, despite what some television vets have claimed. She probably sees it as a benign thing (as there is nothing scary or bad about it). When we talk at dogs in a continuous stream they do tend to tune it out a bit, so that's probably the only downside of chatting to her a lot. Using a quiet, calm voice is sensible though Definitely do (b) - giving her a treat she she makes eye contact with you. You are rewarding attention, which is always a good thing. So do that very often! To prevent her jumping on you in the kitchen, one thing you can do is reward her for sitting/lying on a mat instead. You will need to out her back on the mat lots and reward her lost initially. Or you could invest in a crate for those times when you really need her out from under your feet - it can be a safe place for her where she gets nice chew treats or Kongs while you do your thing.
Re: A strong-willed, little madam! You sound tired and exhausted...as any lab parent does from time to time!!! ;D ;D You need to intercept any and all behavior that you find unacceptable. You can certainly do this in a positive non-forceful way, but you must be consistent with it. If you don't have a crate or pen or safe room for her...you need to establish this immediately. When she bites you, immediately stop what you are doing and put her in a time out in the crate for a minute or two. When she is overexcited and zooming uncontrollable, put her in a time out. When she is too rough with a toy/game/etc, put her in a time out. She will quickly learn what the threshold of tolerance is, and a time out is one of the best non-forceful ways. then work on rewarding good behavior, and training a cue such as "down" "off" "out" or "mat" to do as an alternative to a time out. It will inevitably take some time to get her to this point, but it will be worth it when you have a calmer, safer member of the family. I would also say that she DOES need some good run around play time....but watch her carefully to control her excitement level. There is constructive and healthy play....and there is overexcited out of control play. Training the "down" "off" "out" cues...can be used when you are playing and she is starting to get wound up. getting her to stop, sit, and focus on you for a second or two before zooming again can be both fun and productive for her. Good luck!!!! We all deal with these kinds of crazy pup moments from time to time...learning to manage her in these times is where the real work comes in. ;D ;D
