Re: A strong-willed, little madam! Thanks Rachael, you always offer sound advice, not just to me but on other threads I've read. I am finding it ridiculously hard work ... and constant ... I'm glad that it does at least sound exhausting as well and it's not just that I'm a lightweight!! Thanks also sunsetpines. This is also fab advice. I have a follow up question... She had a crate when she was younger, she's a bit big for it now, she uses it to keep her treats and chew toys in. I have resisted the idea of buying a bigger one because a) I'm skint !!! and b) ... a better reason ... the thing she seems to hate most of all (c/f the puppy class) is being restrained. I just have this feeling that if I start using a crate as time out, it will end up with her banging on the bars to get out (and hurting herself). If I have a time out and go into the other room she starts banging her head against the door and she has managed to knock down the baby gate once by banging at it so much it slipped from its moorings! Also, and not to reject your advice, I'm certainly not, I will try anything...!!! but when I attempt to do anything other than divert her attention with food or an invitation to play, the biting seems to get angrier and more frequent. The idea that I might be able to place her in her crate without getting a nasty nip seems (in my head) very unlikely! When she's not in a state like I've described she really is a beautiful (bonny!) obedient little girl. But the problem does seem to be getting worse not better. I should say.... outdoors she is the BEST dog you could imagine and everyone always comments on how well-trained she is. We love our morning walks in the woods together. But, in the house.... oh boy!!! ???
Re: A strong-willed, little madam! I'm not sure how everyone else does their time outs, but I've had a lot of success with this method my trainer gave me, and I really like it because it (a) works to decrease the behaviour that I time out her for and (b) gives her a chance to correct her behaviour without immediately jumping to a time out. Here is the method: Puppy is doing something undesirable. For example, jumping up on a counter. You say "enough" in a calm voice. Don't yell it or try to intimidate. Just say it as you would another command. This is the puppy's chance to correct her behaviour. At first, she won't know what "enough" means, so she will probably continue to do the behaviour. That's okay! If she does, get ahold of her somehow (by collar/leash/pick up), say calmly "too bad" and take her gently into a time out location. I use the bathroom. She is put in there with the door shut for 10-20 seconds. Very short amount of time. This is a different type of time out than say, putting her in the crate to chill out. I do both, but with this formal command type time out, you really do not need to have her in there longer than 20 seconds. Release her after however long, say okay, and let her out to try again. Keep doing this until she learns what "enough" means. If she stops doing the behaviour that is undesirable when you say "enough," be sure to say "thank you!" and praise her. You can give her a treat if she offers a behaviour you like (Maisie will often sit and be like "who me, I wasn't doing anything!"). My experience with this, once Maisie learned what "enough" meant, is that it really works to correct behaviour nicely. When I say "enough" to Maisie, you can see her thinking. If what she's doing is really enjoyable to her, she might keep doing it, but most of the time, it's a brief struggle between "hmmm I like this but I don't want a time out… okay I'll stop… look mom I'm good" and she stops doing it and does something else I can then praise/treat her for. It also helped me stamp out some behaviour or at least really lessen the amount she does it. I started saying "enough" EVERY TIME she tried counter surfing. Did quite a few time outs, as it was very attractive to her to counter surf. But after 3 days, she very rarely counter surfs - I actually can't remember the last time she tried to jump up. She now sits or lies down when I am preparing food for her on the counter whereas before she would leap wildly up to try to get some. So I find it really helps. The time is also so short that I think she might not go so crazy. Maisie usually just lies down or sits waiting for the door to open again, and is calmer when she comes out. I'd use that type of time out for a specific type of behaviour. For example, biting at your legs. I'm not sure I would use it for attacking a brush, etc. I might use "leave it" in that situation, but I tend to just crate Maisie or put her in her playpen when I have to sweep, etc, because it is just too tempting for her! It looks very much like a toy, so I don't want to have to keep correcting her at this point.. just separating her.
Re: A strong-willed, little madam! I really like the way you have trained 'enough' as like a warning command. Like giving a child a count of 3 or a last chance. I also use 'enough' but not in as formal a way as you. I get fed up of telling Amber 'no' and try to reserve 'no' as a quick interruption. I use 'enough' when she's barking or ragging/humping cushions. I think when you say 'enough' it is less harsh and I naturally say it more calmly than 'no'. Think I might try to train the command to have more meaning. Amber probably has no idea what I say to her but I definitely think a warning command or a cue to change behaviour to avoid a punishment is a nice idea.
Re: A strong-willed, little madam! So sorry to hear that you are still having a tough time of it. It does sound absolutely normal though. My boy used to do "bum runs" I think in the US they are called "butt tucks" where he tucked his bum under him and galloped round the room full pelt. He still tries to do it now, but I can interrupt him these days! I very much agree that settling her quietly in a crate with a kong while you do the housework, or otherwise can't supervise her properly, sounds like a good idea. Time outs are not positive. They punish the puppy, which is why they work - although how upsetting a puppy finds it depends on the puppy - some not very upsetting at all, some a lot - the puppies who find it upsetting will respond quicker to repeated time outs. That's not to say that I think people shouldn't use them, I did use them when Charlie was young, but I wouldn't use them as the only strategy. You could try to encourage your puppy to do something you do want her to do instead - or at least as well as the odd time out. Teaching a positive interrupter might stand you in really good stead - so turn towards you and look at you (and sit, if you want) on a click click sound made with your tongue, things like that. If you get that strong, you can use it when she starts doing something you don't want her to do. Then encourage a range of good behaviours, sit on a mat for a few minutes, follow simple cues to interrupt excitement, and so on. You could also start playing impluse control games. I saw this video by Donna Hill that would be great to start teaching your pup (note there is no verbal cue added until the dog gets it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztRNfyErf8s
Re: A strong-willed, little madam! It's really good to have all of these opinions and advice. I tend to use a "a-a-a-a" as a warning before we go to "no" so we sort of have a warning system in place and, when Bonnie's calm (or outside) this works wonderfully. Thanks so much, we'll begin to implement this in advance of a time out. I absolutely agree with the over-use of "no" ... you get sick of the sound of your own voice don't you!? ;D and it obviously lessens the impact when it's really needed. Although they don't understand the actual word, they must get the difference between a warning tone and a "no" tone - totally agree with you on that! I've re-introduced her crate today and made a few changes to her routine. My objective today is to keep her as calm and happy as possible so that I can re-introduce her crate when she's in a good frame of mind. So, this morning I didn't put her lead on when she went to the garden. The worst that can happen is that she goes and does her business in next door's garden!!! But I can always pick that up. :-\ She went straight across the lane and into our garden today and did genuinely seem to notice (happily) she didn't have her lead on. Then our woodland walk was a bit shorter than usual, I do wonder if she's getting over-tired by the long morning walks and it's making her grouchy. So, we had a shorter walk today. Usually when she comes back we have to have a good old rub down (she rolls in the mud and splashes in the brook)... but today I just put blankets everywhere and have left her muddy In other words today I'm not doing anything she finds annoying, I'm just going to focus on getting her to chill in her crate, every so often, so that when the time comes and we need to do time-outs, we don't have temper-tantrums! Good luck with Amber too 8) Thanks again, I really do love Bonnie to bits. When I'm tired I worry that I'm not the right owner for her, but we'll keep going. It's nearly midday and I have a contented sleeping puppy with me right now! Fingers crossed.....
Re: A strong-willed, little madam! My time out protocol is a lot like Maisie's - she gets a warning and an opportunity to chose to behave...and then a brief time out. I also acknowledge that it is a form of punishment, to a degree as realized by the actual dog in the moment - but I don't put it in the same category as a forced sit/smack/or any form of intimidation. We all get tired and frustrated and even angry at our youngsters from time to time - and I'll be the first to admit that I've done all the wrong things at one time or another... :-[ I prefer to give the warning, and then just pop her in the crate for a time out. Saves us both our sanity. I don't make a big fuss about it, and I try to avoid all angry body language, and just pop her in. My last lab, if she was doing something I deemed undesireable - I would look her in the eye and say to her, "Izzy, you can either stop and lie down quietly here, or get in your box" She would ponder and then choose... I suppose you could say that she picked her punishment either way....but the choice was hers to make. I think overall it's about consistency and reacting the same way every time - be it warning/time out or redirect/retrain an acceptable alternative.
Re: A strong-willed, little madam! We had a good instructor for Sara's puppy classes. Her attitude was basically labs will be labs and she spent a lot of time showing us how to train her. I was still the only one having trouble getting Sara to listen to me until the trainer said Sara didn't respect me as an authority figure and suggested we play more fetch and less tug of war. Almost an over night difference. I guess she saw me as another dog to play with.
Re: A strong-willed, little madam! That's really interesting that you should say that Chris. I have just popped in to say thank you to everyone and to say Bonnie and I have had two absolutely brilliant days together ;D Just brilliant, and so much fun! Yay! Funnily enough, I'm almost sure it's because we've stopped playing games together on the floor. Although I was always conscious not to get into a tug of war scenario, Bonnie did like to have a little tussle in between each "fetch" ... and I did indulged this. :-\ We've been much more structured in our play over the last couple of days. I took away the toys that used to get her over-excited (growly and hurricane-style death shakes!!). I bought some new ones and encouraged more structured play and also allowed her to play on her own much more. We're also doing shorter but more walks per day. The time-outs have been used roughly 2/3 times per day. All of this has all meant a few more treats than normal but I feel we've broken a cycle and we're developing a much better relationship. We both seem so much happier!!! ;D Thanks again for all the tips!
Re: A strong-willed, little madam! Oh hilarious - she just bit my leg as I finished typing that last message! ??? Ho hum, onwards....!
Re: A strong-willed, little madam! Homer has had his full share of hooligan moments, he still does from time to time. Strong willed and demanding certainly describes him too. He would bark short sharp 'I want your attention NOW!' barks and lunge towards me. Quite intimidating for a bundle of fur with sharp teeth. I didn't use his crate for time out but would give him a warning 'enough' then if he persisted then take him by the collar and guide him to the downstairs loo, dark and confined, close the door and count to 30, or at least until I was ready and calm. He still tells me when it's dinner time or time for his next walk but knows he can't push it. If he barks at me then I tell him 'Not now, later' and He'll lie with his head on his paws and whimper, until I finish what I'm doing and attend to him, dinner, walk or play a game.
Re: A strong-willed, little madam! [quote author=Jes72 link=topic=9789.msg144790#msg144790 date=1424444345] He still tells me when it's dinner time or time for his next walk but knows he can't push it. If he barks at me then I tell him 'Not now, later' and He'll lie with his head on his paws and whimper, until I finish what I'm doing and attend to him, dinner, walk or play a game. [/quote] Now that is the benefit of a strong-willed pup who vocalises their wants. I've never needed to know when Bonnie wants to go in the garden as she tells me - quite clearly! I also get to know when she's bored, hungry or ready for her walk. Like you, I have a command to keep her patient until I'm ready, but it's lovely to get that early warning system! ;D And, I am delighted to say, the biting has stopped. As someone else said.... "just like that".... after a couple of days of times out, she just stopped. Doesn't even have the desire. It's amazing! 8)
