Hi I wondered if anyone has any advice on how to keep the dogs well mainly Benson at around 15 metres away from us. Today Benson was ranging around 30 -50 metres just outside our comfort zone. We almost came a cropper where ahead there was a stile leading onto a lane, another dog walker was coming through towards us, took us by surprise as I was more focussed on struggling to get down a muddy path ( With a post op knee it was a bit tricky) Have we created a rod for our backs? By taking the dogs on long ranging walks, allowing them to do their own thing? Wandering ahead and racing through undergrowth? I don't know. Recall actually was very good, big improvment here from both dogs, and a good response to the stop whistle from Benson, despite all the new smells from rabbit, deer etc. However Benson recalled back, waited for a few seconds then tended to run ahead, He then gets in a bit of a "hunting" zone if that makes sense. He did keep checking where we were, that was good. But his focus is not on us. My gut feeling is right now (and we have been doing this) is to up the ante on Benson's training, walks being 70% training and maybe 30% free rein. By training working on focus, recall, heelwork and some dummy work which he seems to enjoy. Would really appreciate any thoughts!
Re: Advice needed - keep closer The way I do it with mine is to hide, at least 3 times every walk. As soon as they are trotting on, not looking back at me, I hide behind a tree or veer off the path in another direction. When they run back to me I give them a small treat without a big fuss. It has worked with both of them - even when they are really 'busy' they keep a close eye on me, as I could disappear at any moment! If they are separated I whip the other out of sight so sometimes one is looking for both of us. I never take predictable routes either so they have to look to me to see where we are going next.
Re: Advice needed - keep closer Allowing Charlie to free run was the worst thing ever. You would have thought it'd be ok, he's a choccie show lab not some hunting dog, but free running was a disaster. It has a massive impact on him. He got almost no free running during June - Aug but over the last couple of months has had some, and we've gone backwards dramatically. I know that hiding and about turn walks work for some - these do not work for Charlie, they work if your dog worries about where you are (and in London, you have to have a dog that worries a lot to do an about turn walk). Charlie is a confident dog, he can get his nose stuck down and then he runs like he is on some mad mission, with his nose glued to the floor. Left to his own devices, he is quite happy to follow his nose and come and find me in his own time. Recalling him back just ruins my recall. Constant pulling back into my comfort zone using my recall, just is awful for my recall. He can go from great recall to ignoring it in a single walk if I do this. So, the key for me is keeping my dog's attention. All the time. He is told "go free" sometimes (he has to have a poo and a pee!) but then rewarded even during that time for choosing to keep his attention on me. I could really kick myself for sliding backwards on this over the last couple of months. I got complacent, and though "oh, I've got a dog that stays with me now". No, I had a dog that stayed with me with a lot of input from me...
Re: Advice needed - keep closer If he likes to hunt then you could get him to hunt close to you. Does he like a tennis ball? If you hunt him hard at your feet for 10 mins in cover/long grass dropping some tennis balls he'll be puffing a bit then he can walk at heel for a bit then free rein for a pee etc, then heel for a bit. Then hunt.....and so on. That's what I'm doing with my spaniel.....only for a few minutes as he's a baby but there's a good chance he'll never "go for a walk" there's just too much temptation ;D Riley is a doddle in comparison although we probably never really fixed his fascination with other dogs and his freedom has definitely impacted his gundog training. He's a pet first though and I can live with those compromises. Obi will have less leeway though poor boy ;D
Re: Advice needed - keep closer Yes, there's a lot of us wishing we'd known when our pups were tiny what we know now!! My only hope of keeping a lid on things is a combination of lots of dummy work and good treats. I have 3 hexabumpers in a mini dummy bag which come everywhere with us. If we get to an interesting off-lead type place the first thing I do, if possible, is put a dummy down where Merla can see it, then walk on about 100 yards (still on-lead, or possibly a bit off-lead if I feel keen) and send her back for it so she can get rid of some adrenaline in a focussed mad dash. The alternative just a random mad dash, where she hopes she'll find a squirrel, or rabbit scent, or something else undesirable, and is always a bad idea. After this, we alternate between 'go play', more 'backs' and hunting, where I stick all 3 dummies into a bit of cover and send her in to use her nose and get them one after the other. On the 'go play' times, I always reward spontaneous returns, and I sometimes hide for her to find me. She'll now recall without a prompt if she sees me stop, which is nice. My word it's hard work though, isn't it?! Kind of cool 8) but not relaxing ;D
Re: Advice needed - keep closer Certainly feel your pain with this one. When we got Simba at a year old he had zero recall, and no sense of keeping close. So I had no choice but to have on-lead walks only while I tried to build up his recall using Total Recall and a whistle. He is much, much better, but still a long ways to go, I can't allow him to walk along with me without a lead or a long line at the moment, and lately I have been using the long line as a long leash, just because we've had some close calls and a runner even with the long line. Sigh. He is very much as Julie describes Charlie, he will take off after a scent and come find me later...10 minutes, 15 minutes, half an hour later. Anyhow, one of the best thing I did to begin to get his attention on me initially was to go to the dog park which is a big fenced in area and walk around there occasionally scattering kibble as I made a special two-note whistle with my mouth. This worked a charm, generally he will roam out a bit ahead but stop and look back at me, I will do my whistle, throw treat, and he will come back. I can also do the two-note whistle and he will stop in his tracks and look back, I throw kibble, he comes back. There are many times that the dog park is empty so this worked great, a place to practice where I knew he could not disappear. I also began my whistle recall there, which was great. As I said, at the moment I am using the long line, it gives us the ability to go on walks where he is not on leash (the four-foot leash, I mean) so he can roam a bit and sniff, etc. I have started to practice using the whistle while he is trotting away from me, getting a satisfactory whip-around and return 8) as well as trying it while is is heading into the bush after a scent, with mixed results at the moment, and I'm glad I have to long line to stop him. Anyhow, I mourn for the days when a walk with my dog in the woods was a lovely peaceful ramble where I could clear my head or think through pressing issues with my dog having a great roam and sniff alongside me, recalling instantly at my command, but I'm coming to realize those days are behind me, I just can't relax vigilance on the pooch, and given his history, doubt I ever will. But c'est la vie, it is what it is and I do the best I can with what I've got and celebrate the successes as I go along!
Re: Advice needed - keep closer One of the best tips I got was not to walk far - setting off to walk at a fast pace, quiet a long distance, sets yourself up to have less time to focus on the dog. I don't go far at all these days. For the afternoon walk this afternoon, I spent most of the time in two fields, playing our ball games, and moved on to another area to play hunting games, that took an hour but we have walked less than a mile. Or rather, I have walked less than a mile, Charlie probably did about 10! [quote author=bbrown link=topic=8867.msg126093#msg126093 date=1416753853] although we probably never really fixed his fascination with other dogs and his freedom has definitely impacted his gundog training. He's a pet first though and I can live with those compromises. Obi will have less leeway though poor boy ;D [/quote] Riley is pretty much an all round super star though. I really think that the gundog stuff has not got to impact on the pet stuff! In that if OH needs to walk along a beach flinging a tennis ball around with his dog, or something like that, he's got to be free to do it, and so on. I do wish though there were more about which bits I can compromise on, and what I can't. It's quite hard taking the gundog stuff and thinking "how am I going to work this into our lives in a practical way?". It has been a lifesaver though, for sure. [quote author=Merla link=topic=8867.msg126105#msg126105 date=1416755861] My only hope of keeping a lid on things is a combination of lots of dummy work and good treats. ... My word it's hard work though, isn't it?! Kind of cool 8) but not relaxing ;D [/quote] Yes, it's really hard work! The trouble with Charlie is the activities wind him up to beyond excited. After 3 fetches and 3 find its tonight, he was just bursting with excitment. He is starting to be able to follow cues now in that state, which is good, but I'm resolved to do much more quiet stuff with him too now.
Re: Advice needed - keep closer [quote author=JulieT link=topic=8867.msg126123#msg126123 date=1416762149] I really think that the gundog stuff has not got to impact on the pet stuff! [/quote] I know nothing about working dogs, but my friend who has worked his dogs for years has said he's going to start introducing more "pet" behaviour into his newest pair. He always maintained that a well-trained working dog would make a good pet almost by default, but he is now thinking that encouraging some of the more pet-like behaviours might make for a more well-rounded dog. I don't know precisely what he was intending to incorporate, but it will be interesting to catch up with him in the future and see what and how he's doing with it.
Re: Advice needed - keep closer [quote author=snowbunny link=topic=8867.msg126129#msg126129 date=1416763340] He always maintained that a well-trained working dog would make a good pet almost by default [/quote] I should think that depends on what you want from a pet. I want cuddles, playfulness, being sociable with my friends and family, being happy on trains and buses, friendly towards all dogs without exception, friendly towards all people without exception, well behaved in the pub, happy at street, garden and house parties, happy to go to day care or out with a dog walker or be looked after by a stranger, not to react to fireworks, traffic or any loud noises....some of that, but far from all of it, fits with working.
Re: Advice needed - keep closer My 'walks' are very like Julie's, though because I have a hard hunting dog in Brodick. Brods is an absolute sop in everyday life, never more than two feet away from me and has a paddy if I dare to go up to the bar without him in the pub and leave him with friends, but get him anywhere where he can smell game and its a different ball game ( literally). The boy lives in his nose, hunting and scenting are his passions but that can lead him into disaster so although he is off lead for the vast majority of his walks he spends most of his time working with me, hunting for dummies, retrieving, and also just good old mad racing after a ball but he doesnt spend a huge amout of time left to his own devices. This morning for example was about thirty minutes on flat grassland with balls, taking turns to race out with Culli, stopping en route out, getting one ball them immediately another etc etc, ten minutes tootling next to me, a lovely fifteen minutes free bouncing, gamboling and snuffling across a moss covered ( but game free) hillside to their 'gundog'area, about twenty mins hunting for dummies in bracken banks with cuilli, which is hard work as they have to run back up steep hills to bring them back to me, another ten minutes free romping and bouncing back across the hillside, couple of retrieves into a little meadow, fifteen mins lead walk home. So about twenty five mins free time out of an hour and three quarters. If I left him to his own devices he'd self reward hunting rabbits and pheasants and his recall would go out the window. Its a lot of interaction but I like it too!
Re: Advice needed - keep closer I find all this really interesting. I have one pet and one Guide Dog to-be. Some behaviours that normal pet dogs do (give a paw, for example) are not allowed for guide dogs. If they lift their paws unexpectedly they could knock things out of their owner's hand. Guide dogs must not walk to heel but ahead on a loose lead. When free running they must always recall and touch your hand - as their owner won't be able to see them. They are not allowed to chase a ball ever, as they need to be able to guide to parks and ball games etc and be steady. But they are allowed to chase other toys. They are not allowed to sniff the ground on lead walks - I find that hard to train, walking ahead, yet not sniffing! Both mine are very good on free runs, relaxing, pottering, sniffing and hoolying. But they check where I am constantly. My niece has a gundog/pet dog Springer. He's a great pet and a fabulous gun dog. But on 'normal' walks he's really hard work - wanting to go off hunting. She has to keep him busy and focussed on her all the time. Maybe this is a gundog thing?
Re: Advice needed - keep closer [quote author=Boogie link=topic=8867.msg126134#msg126134 date=1416765036] Maybe this is a gundog thing? [/quote] It's not for me - Charlie doesn't have one working gene in his entire body, and I turned to gundog training to help me with his ball obsession and my difficulties in controlling him, not the other way round at all. I bought a very sensible dog for my lifestyle! I think with Charlie it is more about excitement and a desire to explore to find games and entertainment than hunting. He was always an excitable dog, but the long period of crate rest through his teenage years seemed to just "sharpen" all of that to excess, really. And his environment means he was "over socialised" as a puppy - by that I don't mean that he was over faced, but it resulted in him being confident and friendly to a fault, really. I say it's not about hunting, but partly that's because I didn't know what hunting was until recently - so I never thought it was. Now I do recognise his nose down, deafness, run off, as following scent. It's not always the same though. I'm still working that out.
Re: Advice needed - keep closer [quote author=JulieT link=topic=8867.msg126123#msg126123 date=1416762149] Riley is pretty much an all round super star though. I really think that the gundog stuff has not got to impact on the pet stuff! In that if OH needs to walk along a beach flinging a tennis ball around with his dog, or something like that, he's got to be free to do it, and so on. I do wish though there were more about which bits I can compromise on, and what I can't. It's quite hard taking the gundog stuff and thinking "how am I going to work this into our lives in a practical way?". It has been a lifesaver though, for sure. [/quote] Ah thanks Riley has to be a pet first and he's definitely "our" dog and Ben likes to chuck balls around too. Obi on the other hand is mine we'll see how I get on with a hunting dog!
Re: Advice needed - keep closer [quote author=JulieT link=topic=8867.msg126144#msg126144 date=1416768281] And his environment means he was "over socialised" as a puppy - by that I don't mean that he was over faced, but it resulted in him being confident and friendly to a fault, really. [/quote] Have a feeling a Inca may end up being like this. Absolutely nothing phases her at the moment and I'm pretty sure she would literally go home with anyone! Finding this topic really useful, we are going to be on our guard to make sure Inca doesn't learn to roam too far. Sounds like relaxing walks with our dog may not be quite realistic!
Re: Advice needed - keep closer [quote author=Merla link=topic=8867.msg126105#msg126105 date=1416755861] Yes, there's a lot of us wishing we'd known when our pups were tiny what we know now!! My only hope of keeping a lid on things is a combination of lots of dummy work and good treats. I have 3 hexabumpers in a mini dummy bag which come everywhere with us. If we get to an interesting off-lead type place the first thing I do, if possible, is put a dummy down where Merla can see it, then walk on about 100 yards (still on-lead, or possibly a bit off-lead if I feel keen) and send her back for it so she can get rid of some adrenaline in a focussed mad dash. The alternative just a random mad dash, where she hopes she'll find a squirrel, or rabbit scent, or something else undesirable, and is always a bad idea. After this, we alternate between 'go play', more 'backs' and hunting, where I stick all 3 dummies into a bit of cover and send her in to use her nose and get them one after the other. On the 'go play' times, I always reward spontaneous returns, and I sometimes hide for her to find me. She'll now recall without a prompt if she sees me stop, which is nice. My word it's hard work though, isn't it?! Kind of cool 8) but not relaxing ;D [/quote] I think this sounds like a good approach. I need to reward spontaneous returns more, make walks more engaging. Maybe knock the long walks on the head for a while, and focus on "doing more" . Keeping his focus the entire time feels like the right way forward. On familiar walks it is much easier, but I think that is because we spend more time engaged with him. On new walks or weekend hikes, I tend to chat with Mr Beanwood, puzzle over directions, and generally pay more attention to our walk then perhaps the dogs themselves, as a consequence this probably sends a message " we are going on a long walk, do what you like" Really great suggestions, thank you all so much..and Julie, are you sure are dogs are not related!! ;D
Re: Advice needed - keep closer My older Lab happily goes mousing and my young one will leap about my dummy bag all the time which drives me potty! I much prefer it when he goes off into the distance ;D
Re: Advice needed - keep closer [quote author=Beanwood link=topic=8867.msg126198#msg126198 date=1416777487] are you sure our dogs are not related!! ;D [/quote] Charlie is a cuckoo - so it's perfectly possible. I see in the news from Charlie's breeder...Charlie's uncle is successfully picking up, one of his sisters has just qualified as a dogs for disabled dog, and his mum has just won a pets as therapy dog award (and his grandmother has qualified for crufts - veteren - 2015). Obviously, the hooligan genes were concentrated in just one dog - and I got him.... ;D ;D ;D
Re: Advice needed - keep closer [quote author=JulieT link=topic=8867.msg126202#msg126202 date=1416778175] I see in the news from Charlie's breeder...Charlie's uncle is successfully picking up, one of his sisters has just qualified as a dogs for disabled dog, and his mum has just won a pets as therapy dog award (and his grandmother has qualified for crufts - veteren - 2015). Obviously, the hooligan genes were concentrated in just one dog - and I got him.... ;D ;D ;D [/quote] Tut Tut... Choccie perfection 8)
Re: Advice needed - keep closer [quote author=JulieT link=topic=8867.msg126202#msg126202 date=1416778175] [quote author=Beanwood link=topic=8867.msg126198#msg126198 date=1416777487] are you sure our dogs are not related!! ;D [/quote] Charlie is a cuckoo - so it's perfectly possible. I see in the news from Charlie's breeder...Charlie's uncle is successfully picking up, one of his sisters has just qualified as a dogs for disabled dog, and his mum has just won a pets as therapy dog award (and his grandmother has qualified for crufts - veteren - 2015). Obviously, the hooligan genes were concentrated in just one dog - and I got him.... ;D ;D ;D [/quote] ;D ;D Bensons has three cousins who qualified as assistance dogs, but they had a different sire to Benson. On his dads side he has a best of breed at Crufts. Some working blood in there from his mother apparently. We originally chose the breeders as we were looking for a calm, gentle labrador.. : I do know now from the original breeder... that his dad was a bit of a handful...(now they tell me......) :
Re: Advice needed - keep closer Went out today armed with a Kong frisbee and fur dummy. Plan was to wander around the same bit of common, for 20 mins, but have both dogs engaged with me for all of the time. It was the first time I had tried this, and felt suitably well armed for the occasion. Got dogs out of car, clipped lead on Casper and held Benson in an off lead heel for a nano second...got to the gate... and ended up in the middle of said bit of common with frisbee in one hand and fur ball in the other...dogs had spotted a couple of their mates and disappeared off over the horizon...ho hum... ;D ;D When they eventually remembered me....(or the home cooked chicken) we had a fabulous time with the frisbee and ball. Casper bombed off to say hello to a pack of collies, but came straight back when whistled, the owner had yelled over to call him back..and actually said thank you which was nice. Although she had her dogs off lead, one collie was on lead and a bit nervous, Casper is never a problem with other dogs, but he does like to say hello, and I guess this is not always appreciated. I have to say the Kong frisbee is great, flies really well and quite a distance too
