I went to an orthopaedic surgeon on monday to see if Monty's elbows could be operated on - what an awful hour. To summarise cos a lot was said: Good points - Monty has excellent muscular hips (!) - He walked fairly well, no obvious limping - at the time - not obviously lame - He is a good weight and nice shape Bad points - Monty appeared to have been on coffee and red bull when we got there. He's always a bit hyper at the vets, but this time was awful, pulling at other dogs, barking (rarely barks), the waiting room was narrow with dogs on either side and it was difficult to get him through without lunging at the other dogs, and we had to negotiate them three times. At one point he got my handbag wrapped round his back leg . Vet said 'he doesn't like dogs then?' I replied, no, he just loves them and wants to play... - I didn't take to this vet. He ignored Monty for nearly 10 minutes, didn't greet him, stroke him or call him by his name once, didn't seem to like him much at all - He called him a plonker for wriggling around when he was trying to examine his elbows /hips - he made me hold him still and Monty really started wriggling about, understandably. He's been examined multiple times by other vets who have managed this without him having to be held still - He said that he would almost certainly not want to operate on Monty as he is so lively and boisterous and we would struggle with his aftercare - pulling out stitches, infections, etc. - Yet he suggested a CT scan to see what his joints looked like anyway. (didn't really figure the logic of this) and I just said yes OK - Said he should come off his daily NSAIDS as they are just acting as a painkiller - why didn't I question this at the time? I should have said, yes, that's why he takes them - his office had a trailing flex and cardboard box on the floor so I spent half the time making sure Monts didn't ruin anything instead of coming up with sensible questions and the killer... - No running for 6 months! all lead walks! Monty lives for his running and playing with other dogs, often only for 5-10 minutes a day, as he can't really do much more than that with his dodgy legs, but the thought of him being on a lead all the time is really upsetting. He's off lead a lot on open fields and woodlands, often fairly close to us, but will run to catch us up every minute or so. He would lose all his, admittedly moderate, recall along the way. Once again, seeing another vet has brought up so many different views. And it cost £130 for 25 minutes. :'( Sorry for the rant.
Re: Aghh! no running for 6 months! I am so sorry, what a wretched consultation and rotten 6 months to come. Sniffing can be very tiring for dogs so let him have lots of sniffs when you are walking him on the lead, strolls and sniffs. Been there and got the tee shirt PS. Why do I think of something else to add when I have already posted! Just to say I am sure JulieT will be along to cheer you up as she had to do similar with her dog.
Re: Aghh! no running for 6 months! Thanks Stacia, I had been wondering how much brain energy sniffing used up. Fortunately we had a good morning walk - working hard on the not-pulling, it's the bane of my life at the moment with him- I basically treat him for every house we pass that he doesn't pull - and let him sniff almost everything he wanted - a 15 minute walk took nearly 35 mins, and I had to hurry him in the end, but I guess this is going to become the norm for a while. I think if it was after an op I could completely understand - but to get to 14 months and then say 'no running' seems a little like too little too late.
Re: Aghh! no running for 6 months! Well, that sounds rather unsatisfying and frustrating There's one school of thought that says that painkillers allow the dog to overdo it, as it doesn't hurt, and therefore cause more damage. Personally I am into pain relief for my animals..... I would say that it is your choice (as long as some other vet will give you a prescription). What's the logic behind the 6 month time period? Perhaps he did not explain.... Really sorry the vet was not a good communicator or that great with animals either....
Re: Aghh! no running for 6 months! Did you ask the vet about that - waiting until 14 months and saying no running was a little late? Are you having the CT scan? I tend to agree with you but may be wrong!
Re: Aghh! no running for 6 months! Hi Karen, No more than we had already heard from our own vet after seeing the x rays, we knew he had severe ED in both elbows =, this consultation was meant to be about surgical options; an arthroscopy where they use a camera to look at the joint, possibly take tiny bits of bone away, another procedure where they cut the joint open and clean it up where possible, I think there was one he mentioned where a small plastic pin / piece could go into the joint... but he would prefer to get a scan to see in 3D what is happening. But if he really doesn't want to operate on such a loon, then is there much point (unless the damage turned out to be really terrible then they would have to) But his comment that he seems to manage quite well considering gave me some hope that it wasn't that bad yet. Oh and the other thing he would like to do is stem cell therapy - take stem cells from his leg and inject them into his elbow. Not exactly experimental but still very much in the early days...
Re: Aghh! no running for 6 months! He said something about bones still developing (not growing, I hope, but guess they might still be soft and flexible) until about 18 months - so in my mind that was in four months time for Monty. But at the end, when I said that keeping the weight off him would be ok but the no running would be extremely difficult, he said that it was THE most important thing I could do for him for the next 6 months - so until the end of August, when Monty is 20 months old. I wish I could go back, listen again and have my questions ready. I think I've probably made him sound worse than he was - he was fine with me, I just really thought he should have been kinder to Monty. [quote author=Stacia link=topic=10247.msg150490#msg150490 date=1426711820] Are you having the CT scan? I tend to agree with you but may be wrong! [/quote] I was about to ring up and book the scan today, but then emailed my phsyio vet with the report and let off steam to her a bit. she suggested I have a chat with her on Saturday about it when we go for hydrotherapy - she may be able to explain things in a better way. I might also run it past our own vet next week. OH already ruined it today by letting him run to meet another dog - they played mostly in the water but there was some running... I was thinking if we at least cut his running down by at least two thirds, that would be a start.
Re: Aghh! no running for 6 months! Oh dear....what a miserable day you have had Hopefully a chat with your physio will help. I know that Lilly was initially rested (with her HD) by the local vet, then the specialist said we had to increase her exercise to build muscle strength. I would guess that just like with humans, specific muscle-strengthening exercises will help to protect the joints, and optimise the joint prior to any surgery or further treatment. Surely rest without any exercise isn't logical - the TYPE of exercise might be the important bit. I think the stem cell therapy is really interesting - they take unspecialised fat cells (easier) or bone marrow cells, stimulate them into being cartilage-making cells then inject them into the joint to coat the rough surfaces. Well, that is a rough estimate. It is supposed to be really good, but still needs the rest and paced activity afterwards I think. Do you think after speaking with your physio you would be able to wring the ortho vet, or even email him, if you had any questions? Just wondered if that might help. I do hope things will look a little brighter really soon.
Re: Aghh! no running for 6 months! So sorry to hear that you're having such a rotten time and I feel your pain on the 6 months without running. Juno has been on lead walks for 6 weeks and we've now got 3 x5 minutes a day for 4 weeks, no stairs, no jumping, no fun basically. Can you phone the Ortho or email him to try and gain some clarity or what he meant or said. My Ortho here in France has been brilliant answering questions, even at the weekend, just to make sure I do all the right things. The CT scan will help in the final diagnosis of Monty's ED. Juno's scan was under a general anaesthetic but without it the surgeon would have operated on the wrong leg! She had always mainly limped on the left but it's actually her right that has the abnormality. It also confirmed the fragmentation and that the ulna is a little too long for the joint. I asked if that is something that continuing growth may resolve and was told no as at 9 months she is pretty much full grown. I seem to have veered off on to Juno's problems instead of Montys, but I think we both feel pretty much in the same place at the moment. Big hugs to you and Juno sends licks to you and Monty
Re: Aghh! no running for 6 months! They do know each other, I think, so yes this might be an option, - my physio vet worked at the practice of our regular vet until just a few months back, and they apparently make regular referrals to the ortho vet, so all three vets know each other to some degree. So, I will have to be careful not to moan about him just in case they get on well and Monty ends up being struck off because of a whingey mum! I agree the stem cell research is interesting - I just want to spend the meagre insurance allowance wisely - I think he said that 50% of dogs showed improvement, but have heard this before about cartrophen injections, nutriquin, laser therapy - Monty never seems to be in that positive percentage bracket! [quote author=drjs@5 link=topic=10247.msg150506#msg150506 date=1426713908] I know that Lilly was initially rested (with her HD) by the local vet, then the specialist said we had to increase her exercise to build muscle strength. I would guess that just like with humans, specific muscle-strengthening exercises will help to protect the joints, and optimise the joint prior to any surgery or further treatment. Surely rest without any exercise isn't logical - the TYPE of exercise might be the important bit. [/quote] When we got the HD diagnosis last year, we were told to build up the exercise the same as Lilly - I'm just not certain that simply walking - will build up much muscle. (tho this is where the physio vet steps in, I guess) The other weird thing he said when I asked how much walking - could he do more than the current 2 x 30 mins a day he said ' yes, either build up gradually, or alternatively try two a hours a day and if he's stiff / limps you'll know it was too much and you reduce it from there'! I really couldn't believe that, and won't be taking the latter option.
Re: Aghh! no running for 6 months! I'd find another vet, right away. Even if this vet is a good clinical vet, it's no good whatsoever if you don't have any confidence in him and he thinks your dog is a plonker. What a plonker of a vet! Go back to your vet and say, very politely, that you don't think this surgeon is someone you can work with and you want a referral to someone else. And while you are at it, check our their qualifications and make sure you are going to someone good. My dog is a nutter. Really. He is a wonderful, fabulous dog and I wouldn't change him for the world - and he has lot of good points. But he's a nutter and I'm kidding myself if I pretend otherwise. I managed to keep him under control and reasonable quiet, without any injuries, for nearly 9 months...and we got a great physical result. Ok, it's not another 9 months I want to live through again, ever, but I did it...no-one suggested that surgery wasn't an option because my dog was nuts, the vets I saw had positive suggestions about how to manage him. Like hydrotherapy to blow off the energy without any risk of injury. I reckon you just got a duff vet there...
Re: Aghh! no running for 6 months! [quote author=leejane link=topic=10247.msg150513#msg150513 date=1426715103] I'm just not certain that simply walking - will build up much muscle. (tho this is where the physio vet steps in, I guess) The other weird thing he said when I asked how much walking - could he do more than the current 2 x 30 mins a day he said ' yes, either build up gradually, or alternatively try two a hours a day and if he's stiff / limps you'll know it was too much and you reduce it from there'! I really couldn't believe that, and won't be taking the latter option. [/quote] You can do a lot with lead walking...but it's not easy. Me, my OH and my dog walker, walked Charlie for 3 hours a day up hills. In six walks. We started with gentle hills, and ended with hills-of-death. It built up his muscle fantastically well. We also built up from 5 minute walks, to 6 minute walks, to 7...5 times a day, 6, 7...10. Kept endless notes, examined how he was walking before and after every walk...cut it down, built it up, did physio exercises... At one point, I had nightmares of walking up the same steep hill all day...no, it was reality. ;D ;D ;D It did work, actually, it worked wonders...
Re: Aghh! no running for 6 months! Rosemary, not a problem talking about Juno, I'm pleased your treatment is progressing well, and I can see that I probably am going to get a CT scan done in the end - if for no other reason to completely understand the problem and I know this will help the physio vet sort out the right exercises and training for him. Julie, that's exactly what OH said when I got home - if you have a bad feeling about him then let's not do any more business with him. I'm trying to separate out my embarrassment / feeling a bit out of control with Monty's surprisingly energetic behaviour and a waiting room of people watching me, against the actual consultation - I'm sure he knew his stuff but I just felt I got lectures about all the options and not really enough time spent on Monty. I am going to sleep on this a little longer, have a good chat on Saturday with my nice friendly physio vet who loves Monty and gives him big hugs and kisses.. as all vets should She might be able to put a better perspective on it and take any emotion out of it that I am feeling right now.
Re: Aghh! no running for 6 months! Oh no, our one good hill of death is about to have houses built on it ! I used to use him to pull me up the hill occasionally. not allowed now on our new loose lead regime! I'll speak to the vet on Sat about hill walking, the surgeon did say his front leg muscles were very weak compared to back legs so this might well help, thanks
Re: Aghh! no running for 6 months! I had to both have confidence in the vets that were treating Charlie and be able to communicate with them. Sure, I cut them some slack (and modified my behaviour to stop sending them quite so many lists of questions to answer at midnight) when I thought messages that I was being a bit pushy were fair, but you've got to have confidence in the people treating your dog. For me, I had to feel they cared about my dog and the outcome... Most young, energetic Labradors are nightmares in vet's waiting rooms. Don't give that another thought...(apart from to plan how best to handle it next time).
Re: Aghh! no running for 6 months! Oh dear, sorry you've had such a rough day. No practical experience other than to say my dog is mainly walked on lead due to our location, etc and he manages just fine. So it's not a complete kiss of death, your pup will adjust if that is what he has to do.
Re: Aghh! no running for 6 months! Hi Natalie, I tend to agree with JulieT and your OH about the vet. He may be the best clinical vet in the world but you, and Monty, need to have a good relationship with him. Forget about being embarrassed about Monty's behaviour and go with your gut feelings about the vet. Many dogs get stressed at the vets and young dogs can be bouncy and owners embarrassed but he should be used to that and make you and Monty feel relaxed, and not that you are being lectured about possible treatments. It's virtually guaranteed that if Juno meets another dog in the waiting room she is going to pee on the floor in excitement. She has now managed to pee in every vets clinic we have visited - and that's four in the last four weeks - and never once has anyone said anything or even looked put out about it; needless to say I've been a bit embarrassed :-[
Re: Aghh! no running for 6 months! Hi Natalie , I cant really add to what has been said, but just adding my sympathies , what a rotten time you are having . I certainly could not stay with a Vet who , despite all credentials , did not relate to my dogs or to me , you need to have faith in all aspects of care, good luck x
Re: Aghh! no running for 6 months! Just regarding embarrasment at the vet's - my worst time was when I took my two young male labs to the vet - and they BOTH peed on the wall on the way out of the door!!!!! So just having a dog that bounced around a bit is not too bad...
