Hi all We have an 8 months old Flat Coated Retriever, Codie - and have been following this forum since we got her. Codie has been quite a handful for us, especially with intensive puppy biting. The puppy biting is now finally decreasing. However, a new type of biting / snapping has taken its place. The new snapping is a huge pain and has been going on for ~3 months. She will jump in the air snapping left and right. Often the targets are gloves, jackets, the dog whistle, the treat bag, trousers and fingers. This often goes on for a few minutes and then she returns to normal. We have bought several books, consulted several dog trainers and read all forum posts on the subject. The advices we get are as many as the sources. Some are: ignoring the behavior, distracting when it happens, preventing it from happening etc. Some say she wants to play, some say she is bored, some say she is begging for treats. We have tried it all, without success. For the past month, we have been ignoring the behavior as much as possible (hard when it hurts, and you are "trapped" in an open field!). When it happens indore, we say nothing, looks away, instantly leaves the room and waits 30-60 secs before we return (sometimes she uses this opportunity to check the kitchen table for food). It seems not to have any effect. We walk her plenty and she is off leash several hours each day. We also play and train indoor. When she is tired, she is crated, and she generally sleeps well. She is rarely alone for more than 6 hours. Generally, she is a very sweet and friendly dog. She plays without problems with other dogs and likes everyone she meets. She seems not to be particularly scared of anything. The behavior is often triggered by the following events: - Failed training attempt resulting in no treat - Difficult training, such as long duration stay (happens just after) - Putting on / taking off leash - Us pulling the leash (we try not to do this, but it can sometimes not be avoided) - Situations when she needs to concentrate - Long duration training - When she is hungry and waiting for her food - When she is tired and needs to be craited soon Sometimes it seems to be without any reason. She can be running happily on a field, and suddenly she starts jumping and air-snapping. We get the feeling that she gets frustrated for some reason. It seems that I trigger the behavior more than other people (male, 31). The behavior is a big issue with our training. We are attending obedience training (with retrievers only) and she seems to be the only one doing this. We are never able to complete a training session (60 min), without a few episodes of this. We do not know what to try next and really appreciate any advice on this. Thanks Best regards Christian
Hi @Christian_ Welcome as a particpant on the forum. Despite the lengthy entry, I think it will be useful to get some additional information. You mention difficult stay exercises as a trigger, and failure to get treats as another trigger. How are you training the stay exercise? In what way is it difficult? Duration? Distance to other dogs? Distance to you? Rate of positive reinforcement? What are you using for rewards? It reads as if your dog is frustated, and that the air snapping is a release of frustration. How much time does the dog spend on a long line? Will the dog play with a tug toy? Last has your vet checked your dog?
Hi Michael, thanks a lot for your reply. We train stay at home indoors and outdoors. We train inspired by the "The Labrador Handbook", and try only to increase either duration, distance or distraction one at a time. When we attend dog training with other dogs, we keep the duration and distance very short/low, due to the other dogs. At dog training class, she sits on a box with me on her right side. I go in front of her and tell her "stay". I walk a few steps, turn around, walk back to her right side, wait 3 sec, tell her "good" and gives a treat. This often works fine, then suddenly, she will start jumping and snapping just after we finished our round. I would say it rarely happens at the first try, it seems to get more likely for each attempt. Even very simple exercises can trigger this. We daily train the contact exercise (indoor) where the dog touches the hand in front of her. I can do maybe 5 of these, then it is like she loses patience and wants to escalate to some rough play. My girlfriend can do many more without any trouble. We take her for 3-4 walks a day. Two of which are off leash in the woods or on field for one hour or a bit more. She generally behaves well on these walks, but will sometimes approach me and start jumping or grapping my gloves. This often happens a few times during a 1 hour walk – making it difficult for me to walk her alone. We try to entertain her during the walks, but also try to keep her from getting too excited. She loves to play tug and we do this some each day, but I have been concerned that this could encourage rough play. She would love to do it more (she would likely do it all day). She has just been checked by the vet a few days ago. Apart from being a bit overweight (2-3 kg) she should be fine. I really appreciate your time. Br Christian
Thanks for the reply Christian Maybe try giving her a tug toy as a reward for successful repetitions as a substitute/complement to food treats. The fly snapping can be a OCD behaviour and you need to attempt to stop the behaviour from starting. The tug toy will give him something to hold and bite. Here's an image of two worth getting. Here is something on playing tug. Why two? You need to teach the dog a mine cue so that the dog will give up the tug. You will need a substitute tug toy to teach that cue. The tug toy will not teach your dog to become aggressive. Otherwise passengers at airports would be attacked by detection dogs. At our local airport, Beagles are used to detect incoming fruit from another State. I have heard of idiotic passengers kicking the dogs, but never read about a Beagle attacking a passenger. What is your girlfriend doing differently? Film her and watch it. Film your routine and watch it. You can pick up things on film better. Are you moving your hand's position before you give the cue, which is something that you should do. Vary the height, position and hand. Move onto a target stick. Are you doing the same thing resulting in boredom and frustration? Let us know what you observe, and whether the tug toy mitigates or worsens the problem.
Hi Michael Thanks a lot for the information. We will definitely try both tug toy and recording video to spot the difference. Codie is my third dog (two while growing up), while it is my girlfriends’ fist. My girlfriend was much more cautious than me while Codie was in her puppy biting phase - maybe this could explain the difference? A dog trainer (who uses positive training) has recommended us to slightly squeeze her lower jaw when she jumps and grabs our hands. Not to the point which hurts the dog - just so that it is not particularly fun for her to continue. We are very reluctant to use any kind of physical punishment, however, if we say "no!" she seems completely unconcerned. Do you think this is something we should try or avoid? I think we need some way to stop the behavior when it happens, as it can continue a while and may be self-reinforcing. Br Christian
I take it that you encouraged her to be rough when you played with her as a puppy. Yes, I think that could be a key factor. She is good with your girlfriend because that behaviour there was never reinforced.You positively reinforced the behaviour you are seeing now. But good thing, you can extinguish the behaviour by not engaging in any more rough house play. It will take a while because she has a history of such biting. The trainer is not a positive trainer because what he has recommended is positive punishment. I would not follow the trainer's advice. It could very well make her more aggressive. And to be blunt it's unfair. She does not know you've now changed your ways. Does she know what no means? And even if she does, how does she know it's not part of the game? Carry the tug toy with you when around the dog. Re-direct her mouth onto the tug toy if she attempts to bite you. Play tug with her. The moment she grips onto you, the game stops. You are only reinforcing her biting the tug toy. .
Hi Michael Thanks again for your detailed reply! It has never been my intension. We have played tug but stopped when it became too rough. However, as we are new at this, we may have allowed too rough play. She often tries to escalate, and I may have interrupted too late. We have not specifically teached her "no" and likely does not know the meaning of the word. It was my understanding that dogs generally understand the tone of voice and would associate a harsh voice with something negative. I have tested this a few days now. I am not able to make it work consistently - let me explain with an example from this morning: 5 min into the work she starts grapping my gloves (I was not able to predict it at this time). I immediately pull out the tug and redirect her attention to the toys. We play a few minutes (play, let go, play, let go ... and so on). I end this with a "let go" and puts a treat on the ground to let her focus down and we can continue the walk without problems. This worked great. We do this sequence 2-3 time during the next 20 min walk. At each time, she becomes less interested in the toy and more in my gloves, despite my best attempts to make it interesting. At the end, I was not able to redirect and could not "end the game" – resulting in the same uncontrollable snapping. Just for my understanding, do you mind explaining why pulling out the tug toy does not reinforce the behavior (I know this is in line with many books / experts)? If I train e.g. sit and reward with the tug toy - the sit is reinforced. If so, why is the air-snapping not reinforced if I do the same? I am asking to make sure not to do it wrong. Once again, we really appreciate the help. Br Christian
I am confident that that wasn't your intention. But conditioning can increase the likelihood of a behaviour or the intensity of the behaviour, as you have discovered. The dog doesn't know what is your optimal amount of rough play. By all means put your dog in drive when say doing recall or retrieving. But when she returns to you teach her also teach to be calm. Let her relax before you and then when she is relaxed give the release cue. But don't get a dog in drive with your body unless you want to go down the route of Schutzhund. In that sport the handlers wear protective clothing. I made the observation in case someone else was reading the thread. Don't play rough with your puppy because when they become a dog it's no longer cute behaviour. Sure, speaking loudly or even yelling at her might work. But how does it teach her what she shouldn't be doing. At the moment you used your stern tone she was doing lots of things. How does she know which of the things she was doing you did not like? We have exactly the same problem in teaching dogs desirable behaviours. That is why we have to teach sit, in the lounge room, the kitchen, the back garden, the front garden, down the street, opposite the bus stop, with our back to the dog, and so so on. Then when she sits in all those positions we are confident the dog understands what the cue means. Besides it is better to show a dog what you want. It's fairer on the dog. grapping? I think you mean grabbing. Yes? Well that sounds as though it went really well. Great. The gloves are more exciting because they are alive with movement. How did you try to make the tug interesting? Try to imitate a snake trying to get away from her. If she persists in biting you and is as uncontrollable as you suggest, then it seems to me you have only two options, when you are out of your home. Grab her by the flat collar with her head pointing away from you and wait for her to relax. Reward the calm behaviour when it happens. Or preferably tie her lead to a post or tree, turn your back and walk away, so that she can no longer bite you. Keep your back to her. You're hurt. She needs to sense that. She has also momentarily lost you as a friend. Only go back to her when she is calm. Don't yell at her. If she is calm when you go back, reward her with a treat. If she decides to bite you when you go back, then turn your back and walk away again. It will if she views the tug game as a reward for biting you. So you have to get the tug toy in her mouth before she bites you. You need to be really observant of her behaviour. As you do give her the tug toy rather than allowing her to bite your hand, say "yours". You are teaching her that she can bite the tug toy. And that she will be able to do that when you give her the cue "yours". When you want the tug toy back, give the cue "mine". Perhaps you might be able to film what is taking place and put it up on YouTube, and put the link here so that we can see what is going on? One alternative is to find a positive dog trainer, who can come to you and observe precisely what is happening. I don't have that opportunity here. My solution is only a suggestion based on your description. I realise you have hired a so-called positive dog trainer before. But he wasn't such a trainer. If you can find a positive dog trainer, then the trainer will be able to see the entire picture. I am not trying to fob you off. I'm just wary of trying to offer a solution to a problem I haven't observed. That is why I suggested a video, at the very least. Written descriptions are an imperfect description of what is taking place between you and your dog. .
You've received lots of advice but in person and on forums and nothing seems to work. Consider that Codie is not properly brain developed, i.e. mentally defective, and that no amount of effort on your part will be effective. If his behavior doesn't sort itself out by the time he's 1.5 years you may need to make a tough decision.
@AlphaDog If you had read the thread properly the dog behaves very well (albeit not perfectly with the girlfriend but what young Lab is perfect?). I don't think one can draw the conclusion the dog is possibily mentally defective. Wouldn't a mentally defective dog behave a similar way with both genders?
Hi Just wanted to give an update to this in case anyone is searching the forum for a similar issue. Codie is now 14 months and we have since my original post tried our best to redirect the unwanted behavior to a tug-toy or similar – as suggested by Michael. While she still can show signs of this behavior it is now much less (maybe 10% or before) and much easier to interrupt. Also, we have become better at spotting when it may happen and immediately “sit” her and direct her attention to something else before it escalates (e.g. let her search the ground for some treats). Codie remains a big challenge to us, but this major problem is now almost solved. Thanks for your suggestions and guidance to get us through this. Br Christian
