I've been doing a lot of grumbling about my husbands methods of training Bella or correcting her behavior...which are mostly frustration and anger based reactions to her. Obviously this is from his upbringing of "old redneck farm dog training" where you smear their nose in whatever accident in the house they make, smack their nose for biting, kick them when they jump up...and yell and scream no repeatedly for any and all infractions. :-[ :-[ :-[ Honest...he's not a terrible demon owner...he loves our dogs to distraction...but "this is how I've always done it...why change" mindset is frustrating. So I do most of the basic obedience training...and try to use positive methods...have a clicker I use, distract and redirect when possible...but find that some of Bella's most annoying behaviors are things that happen primarily in the care or presence of my husband. And so maybe...if I'm being honest and objective about it....I'm letting my frustration bleed out onto Bella when I'm working with her. :-[ Her day with hubby: Leave the house, get in the car, drive to work, walk on the lead to the store. Go into the kennel while hubby does assorted work things. Have a little out of the kennel play time, eat lunch, potty break on the lead, and back into the kennel. Mid afternoon, when possible, outside the kennel play time, and an onlead potty break that IS NOT a walk, just a quick dash out the door to do her business and then back inside. Back in the kennel and wait for mommy to show up. Her day with me: Get up, go pee, fix breakfast, play, help mommy in the bathroom (ie..take a shower...it's great fun to have warm rain! : ), play...mommy leaves. Mommy magically appears at daddy's work!!!! 8) 8) 8) 8) Mommy takes me for an on lead walk and sometimes I'll pee and poo...sometimes not. Stop and say goodbye to daddy, walk to mommy's car, drive home, hop out and PLAY with my sister, run around and eat duck poo, and be a general hooligan for a few minutes. Go in the house with mommy, help her change her clothes, play with the kitty, and then back outside for more play time while mommy feeds the goats and chickens. Back in the house. Mommy fixes dinner for me....and then for her....we play some more....I have to do some tricks...then daddy comes home....Mommy and daddy eat, and I play with toys and sometimes daddy throws the squeaky for me. We snuggle on the couch until time to go outside for the last potty before we all go to snuggle in bed. Obviously, I'm primary care giver and entertainment concierge. But some of the most basic obedience skills are most applicable to the time she spends with hubby - like on-lead walking. She pulls...she sniffs...she leaps with excitement when people approach.... : She's a 5 month old lab... I know in theory we need to work to establish walking at heel and impulse control.... I try to do a lot of when she pulls....stop moving until she relaxes. But sometimes it's a constant can't even go a step thing...she just won't settle....and so I find myself frustrated, doing sharp "leash checks", exasperated "Bellllaaaaa" , "STOP"....force her into a sit....etc. And then the guilt hits. :-[ and I can only IMAGINE what comes out when she's with hubby. so options here that I see are harness...about turn walks....and super focus on heel position and training that position....getting her attention on ME during the walk and less on the environment. But HOW do I get her attention without the exasperation and leash checks? Jumping up....options I see are turning around and wait for her to stop and then praise the down...obviously working on a "kikopup" style greeting o f4 feet on the floor....but how do "interrupt" the bad behavior concisely...but without cruelty?? Hubby is a serious knee to the chest....force her shoulders down (dominant) to the ground with all kinds of growly voice intimidation. :-X He's also a "repeat the command until they do it" type....and make her do it correctly multiple times before she gets a reward. : And then...how do I attempt to curb/alter his reactions so that whatever menial progress I make with her is not reversed the next day when he takes her on an "abusive lead walk" ??? Sorry...this is turning into a bit of a grumble/rant...but I DO want some suggestions to help with MY training of Bella. Looking forward to your feedback...
Re: Alternative suggestions Can't help you with any suggestions just wanted to say I am going to watch this thread avidly as I can relate to a lot of what your going through.
Re: Alternative suggestions Yes, very frustrating. The best way to convince a partner to do it the kind way is to show them that you are getting results with kind methods while they are not getting results with rougher methods. With jumping up, the two best approaches are: 1. turn around quickly and walk away when she jumps 2. practise your sit at every opportunity and always reward it with treats and/or enthusiastic pats. You want sit to be her default when she approaches people, not jumping. Over time, this combination of tactics does work. Stick at it! With pulling on lead.... Personally, I do not walk my dog at heel unless I am told to by my obedience instructor, deliberately practising heeling, walking along a narrow path with cyclists approaching, going through a crowd, or passing another dog. At all other times my dog is on a loose lead, walking where he likes as long as the lead is loose. Dogs do not have to walk at heel all the time. They can even sniff! But they do need to walk on a loose lead. So, just work on that single dimension - having the lead loose. That is all. Don't worry about where she is, don't worry about having her attention on you. Simply respond to the looseness or otherwise of the lead. Then the road to success is very simple. When she pulls, stop. When she is not pulling, go. That is it. All you care about is the lead. Just make sure you are never ever the one to initiate pulling (except in an emergency like a bike about to run her over). Part of the issue here is the sheer frustration pulling causes you. So what I would try to do is think about pulling in a different way. Be determined to adopt a calm, zen-like approach to pulling. Your dog has pulled on the lead. So what? Is the world still turning? Yes. When she pulls, just stop. Don't let her pull you a millimetre! Have a smile to yourself about how futile her pulling is. She pulled, you stopped. You just taught her something. Don't do anything else. Nothing. Just wait. When the lead loses tension, continue walking. It might take 5 minutes. Who cares? Admire the cloud formations or contemplate the ants on the path. Whatever. Just make sure your stress factor about the pulling is zero! If she won't go a step without pulling, then don't go a step. Put it in her paws. It is up to her whether you go anywhere or not.
Re: Alternative suggestions [quote author=sunsetpines link=topic=9706.msg140294#msg140294 date=1422488834] She pulls...she sniffs...she leaps with excitement when people approach.... : She's a 5 month old lab... I know in theory we need to work to establish walking at heel and impulse control.... I try to do a lot of when she pulls....stop moving until she relaxes. But sometimes it's a constant can't even go a step thing...she just won't settle....and so I find myself frustrated, doing sharp "leash checks", exasperated "Bellllaaaaa" , "STOP"....force her into a sit....etc. And then the guilt hits. :-[ and I can only IMAGINE what comes out when she's with hubby. so options here that I see are harness...about turn walks....and super focus on heel position and training that position....getting her attention on ME during the walk and less on the environment. But HOW do I get her attention without the exasperation and leash checks? [/quote] You do sound frustrated - and that's really undastandable. A young lab that pulls on the lead is no fun, no fun at all. The thing is, what you describe yourself doing isn't effective. So this bit is not really about choosing to train positively or with punishment. If you wanted to train effectively with punishment, you would not be doing what you describe. But you are motivated to have Bella stop pulling, so it should be easy to convince yourself to stop doing what you are doing now - because it's not going to work, you need to do something else. In terms of your husband walking her, well, you need to find out what is happening. If he is also imposing punishment that is ineffective, you need to take steps to stop it. Put her on a front fastening harness for him to walk her, maybe? Rachael has given you great advice. I can add just a couple of things that helped me: I trained a turn towards me cue - mine is a click click sound with my tongue. When Charlie pulled, I made my sound and changed direction. I walked up and down the same bit of ground, which was the street outside my house. I gradually extended this until I could walk round the block. When I started trying to walk him away from the house, I did the same. I walked in a small circle on the same bit of the wood, round and round. Walking on the same bit of ground is important, if you can't do that, you can hope to have your dog not pull when the ground (and smells) are changing. Stop trying to go anywhere with a dog who pulls - only train loose lead, don't try to use it before you've trained it. Best of luck with it.
Re: Alternative suggestions I am the main trainer for Harley. My husband used to be similar to yours, but I have managed to show him that positive training works. There is the odd occasion he tells her off or taps her nose, but it is becoming less and less. He has started using the training I have shown him like 'touch', 'look', waiting for her to look at him then rewarding. His lead walking if different to mine - Harley pulls with him and is usually on body harness or flat collar, but on head collar or harness with me she rarely pulls I think she knows what she can get away with and with whom!! hubby doesn't like the head collar, but asked me the other day to show him how it goes on Keep plugging away and show him how the positives training works
Re: Alternative suggestions Kenzi isn't perfect with walking and she will sometimes pull towards and interesting smell but in general walking she's pretty good (unless within sight of water). I used the stop and stand like a statue until they stop pulling method, it's frustrating but if you try to be consistent it does seem to work. I also started doing a little click with my tongue combined with a very slight tug on the lead if she's started to speed up to encourage her to slow down, now she will often just slow a little with just a click. In terms of getting her attention on you, you can teach the watch or look at me whilst not on a walk, by luring her eye contact with a treat and saying yes and treating when she gives eye contact - then do it on walks without any distractions, then try with distractions etc. However, she's a lab and 5months, so she's sometimes going to be interested in something else and you just have to wait them out sometimes (which can sometimes make you feel like a bit of a stalker as you wait/watch whilst someone moves out of sight). I vaguely recall at 5.5-6months feeling pretty frustrated with training and almost like things were not improving but after reading other posts i think that's normal. Training will sometimes feel like it regresses for a day or week(s) but then your dog will do something amazing and you can see a bit of light at the end of the very long tunnel. note: Kenzi often stays at my parents when i'm busy, i basically taught my mum what i was doing so it would be as consistent as possible. My mum then tried to teach my Dad but he's also older school too but he's getting there.
Re: Alternative suggestions [quote author=Oberon link=topic=9706.msg140300#msg140300 date=1422501216] With jumping up, the two best approaches are: 1. turn around quickly and walk away when she jumps 2. practise your sit at every opportunity and always reward it with treats and/or enthusiastic pats. You want sit to be her default when she approaches people, not jumping. Over time, this combination of tactics does work. Stick at it! [/quote] I am struggling a bit with my two jumping up again - they seem to have regressed after some good improvements, and now they're getting bigger, it's something I need to nip in the bud. The first option here I find very difficult to manage when it's other people she's jumping on. Despite my protestations, some people STILL say "oh, they're just a puppy". Shame they won't be puppy-sized much longer and then it WILL be a big problem! So I've been working on approach number two with both of them. As we approach someone they know, or who I know will want to talk to them, I put them into a sit about ten feet away and let the person approach THEM, rather than the other way around. If they're off lead playing and go running up to someone (it's always someone we know, they're good at not running up to strangers), then I've started recalling them and then approaching calmly, so they're not allowed to go up too excited. I've also started working on the stop whistle which I can see being useful in this situation - although by the time it's proofed enough to be effective with that level of excitement, I'm hoping the jumping up will have been cured anyway. But the sit is invaluable. Good luck
Re: Alternative suggestions I've stopped thinking about taking my puppy for a walk and now we go training. Either we're doing a similar thing to what Julie described - walking in a low distraction environment (our road) and C&T for loose lead walking or I drive somewhere he's going to run around doing recalls and stop whistles and retrieves. Eventually we get to the point Riley is at where we cruise around, under control either at heel or off lead and we can walk on lead to the areas we're going to be off lead. That day is not here yet for Obi pupster by any means, he's six months old. I do have to contend with his ridiculous, big pink nose that drags him around all over the place though Riley was definitely easier to get to a point where he was a pleasure to walk on a lead. Hang in there and keep training, it does come right eventually
Re: Alternative suggestions You have already had some very good advice. And it is all very consistent because it works. It won't work instantly, but consistency wins the day (eventually) I have had to train my husband. For example. Loading the dishwasher. Well the tongue comes out (the dog's not the husbands) and she shoves her head in the way, even tried to get in the dishwasher when she fitted. My approach. Made her sit about 4 feet away, every time she broke the sit I'd take her back and would keep on doing so until the dishwasher is loaded. He just shouted, pushed her away and came back to do it later. What did that teach her? ****** all. She now sits quietly while I load the dishwasher and even he has learnt to tell her to sit while he loads up. We settle down in easy chairs for the evening, Molly comes up to be friendly. He tries to push her down on the ma the has placed lovingly by the fire and his chair. "Oh what fun. He's playing with me" thinks Molly and wrestling match ensues. I have now trained him to tell her "on your mat". Peace is restored. His method. Shout and push her away. I pointed out that when he pushes her away, she thinks he's playing and comes back for more. I eventually said "why don't you use what I've put in place and get her to sit". He tried it, well blow me down. It worked. Accept that when you are training a puppy to walk don't go anywhere. If you are going somewhere, the shops etc there is always a pressure to arrive and inevitably it leeches into us. As Julie says, just walk over the same area again and again, there will be less distractions. I found when training Molly that if I walked down the other side of the street she would be totally distracted by the smells. Keep traing walks fairly short. My experience was that it took her a little while to get the right mind set, but if I walked her too long she became tired and lost her ability to concentrate. One other thing, and it really is obvious but frequently overlooked. When your husband keeps repeating commands, and no doubt getting crosser and louder he IS training her, but he's training her to ignore him until she feels like it. Good luck with it. Keep plugging away. You'll get there in the end.
Re: Alternative suggestions [quote author=bbrown link=topic=9706.msg140334#msg140334 date=1422525348] I do have to contend with his ridiculous, big pink nose that drags him around all over the place [/quote] Ridiculous?! Obi pup, don't listen!!!
Re: Alternative suggestions [quote author=Mollly link=topic=9706.msg140335#msg140335 date=1422525764] One other thing, and it really is obvious but frequently overlooked. When your husband keeps repeating commands, and no doubt getting crosser and louder he IS training her, but he's training her to ignore him until she feels like it. [/quote] A lady I know did this with her young lab girl. She wasn't cross but she did keep repeating herself. I think there's two things to this. One is does the dog actually understand the command? My dad often tells my dogs "away" and repeats himself. I've explained several times that the dogs don't understand what he wants as they've never been trained to go "away" and he's gradually getting the message. They don't understand English, they understand commands (with the exception of the words breakfast, lunch, dinner and biscuit ) Secondly is the whole repeating commands detrains the dogs. With the lady in class the instructor was explaining but she wasn't really understanding so I said it's like if I meet you and say "I'm really thirsty could I have a glass of water please?" you say "yes, of course" and then instantly I ask again, and again and again. It's causes you to become tense and possibly irritated and then you may choose to ignore the crazy nagging lady who wants a drink but it doesn't make my glass of water come any faster. So there are two things, does the dog understand and have they had the opportunity to take action. If the answer to either of those things is no then you are never going to get what you want and you need to change the answers to yes before you can expect the right result. Built into understanding is of course the whole proofing thing as dogs don't generalise terribly well. I hope that makes sense, it's how I look at it anyway - best of luck training the dog....and your OH ;D
Re: Alternative suggestions [quote author=snowbunny link=topic=9706.msg140336#msg140336 date=1422525840] [quote author=bbrown link=topic=9706.msg140334#msg140334 date=1422525348] I do have to contend with his ridiculous, big pink nose that drags him around all over the place [/quote] Ridiculous?! Obi pup, don't listen!!! [/quote] Yup ridiculous....just like his crazy spaniel ears and waggy, stumpy tail ;D
Re: Alternative suggestions [quote author=bbrown link=topic=9706.msg140338#msg140338 date=1422526438] Yup ridiculous....just like his crazy spaniel ears and waggy, stumpy tail ;D [/quote] That's not ridiculous, it's just "viva espaniel"! ;D
Re: Alternative suggestions Thanks everyone...my post definitely turned into a frustrated vent about OH more than Bella :-[ Sorry about that. So loose lead walking....stop all progress until the leash is slack, but allow wandering and sniffing if lead is slack. That I can do. Pretty much the only on lead walking she does is in town...so lots of public streets and interesting smells and things dropped by lord only knows who/what. There is lots to sniff...and LOTS of potential people. And there is usually a purpose to her walks. Get from the parking area to the store - go outside to pee/poo - go from the store to the car. I have much more time in the evenings with her to allow a sniff around and focus on loose lead...so I will make a concerted effort to take my time with her and insist on loose lead only - and in a calm and non-frustrated frame of mind. Once I can get it consistent with me, I'll work on hubby's skills with her. Question: I know there are mixed feelings about harnesses - but would it be a useful training tool - will she be less inclined to pull with a harness than just a flat collar? Would it be useful to have for hubby's benefit primarily, and will it assist with my stop efforts as well? Greeting people and controlling excitement. When she is on walks in town with me, I always stop and ask for a sit when someone is going to cross our path, or when she sees them and focuses in on them. I work to keep her in a sit until they pass, and I'm moderately successful in this. I've been thinking it might be good to try and take her downtown and find a bench so that we can work to desensitize her a bit...and weather has been moderately better to consider such a training trip...so I might try and schedule some time like that soon....I also think that if I can work and set up some training scenarios for greeting people calmly that will probably help too. Any specific suggestions for getting her to settle when its ME she is greeting in the evening after being with daddy all day? She is generally in a crate when I get there, sees me, hubby lets her out and she RUSHES full speed ahead to me and jumps, hops, wiggles, licks as I try and calm her and keep her from jumping. Thanks again...this forum is a God-send!!! ;D ;D ;D
Re: Alternative suggestions Regarding coming out of the crate, I've taught my girl to wait until she gets the "okay" to come out of her playpen and crate. I don't even have to say wait for the crate/playpen. She also knows the wait command for doors and won't go through unless released. You could just use it at the crate door if you like. Process for teaching it is fairly simple. Put puppy in crate/playpen/before open doorway. Open door. If she moves as though wanting out, shut the door. When she waits/stays there while the door is open, you can say "okay" (or whatever you generally use as a release word) and pat the ground in front of the crate and encourage her out. Where treating comes in, maybe someone else has a good suggestion for that as I don't remember what I did originally. To practice this, have her in there, door closed, say wait (once she gets she should wait, once you have the behaviour), then open it, if she waits in there patiently, give her a treat. Do it a couple times, every time she waits nicely give her a treat, if she tries to get out, move the door in towards her. Basically she needs to learn if she moves, the door closes. If she stays put, she gets either a treat or gets to come out of the crate. Yay! I wouldn't start training this when you get home though with your husband - just as a general training exercise other times. You can build it up through games where you start moving further and further away, with the door open, putting treats on the ground in front of the crate, going out of sight for a second, etc. It's kind of a fun one and I think it helps their impulse control. We're at the point where I can put her in her crate, tell her wait, and throw little bits of treats around and then say, "okay, find it" and she comes out to find all the treats I've dropped around the house. You can also play this with any door or with a playpen door or anything. It's really useful I think. My girl is at the point where if she's in her playpen with door shut when doorbell rings, she pops up, then when I go to the door to let her out of the playpen, she lies back down and waits for the okay, can then wait for the doors to get to the doorbell door (if that makes sense). If you don't feel like training that one, you could always just come in, have her stay in her crate, take your coat off, shoes off, settle in, and when she's waiting calmly to come out you can let her out. Let her frantic excitement die down a little before paying attention to her is another option, when you let her out (but who doesn't want to cuddle a wriggly puppy??).
Re: Alternative suggestions Reading this thread strikes a cord with me on so many levels. Molly I love how you are not only training your dog but also training the OH! I have recently started to use a clicker to train Rolo, his sits are sloppy! So I have totally withdrawn the verbal command and am starting from scratch. My hubby knows this. He said to me last night, I don't know why you have to mess around with changing his training I can get him to sit no problem! He gave the sit command 5 times and got nothing. Rolo just looked at him like he was an alien. I did my hand command and he sat perfectly (result!). Basically what I am saying is they think they know best! Keep at it he will see how great your hard work is paying off and will want the same results.
