Re: BAT tips Thank you, thank you, thank you Debsie that's a great idea. First problem though they hate the car!!!!! . They get really worked up and squeal like pigs so by the time we get to the vet they are well over their limit. They've been like that since we picked them up from the breeder and I've meant to tackle it but have never got around to it. :-[ Im so stupid they're never going to be even slightly calm at the vets with the state they get into in the car. :-[ First step desensitise to car then. I had an idea how to do it when i re read my BAT book if you don't mind checking if I've got the right idea or perhaps you could suggest a better one. First I thought I'd walk them passed the car with the door open. They don't bother just walking passed the car but I think the open door will be a trigger. C&T as passing then eventually withhold C&T until passed and no reaction. Next step stop at open door or as near to it without going over threshold C&T and gradually move nearer. Then get in car C&T then out building up duration. Once very comfortable with being in car shut door C&T etc (will need someone to help with that so I'm in car) Eventually once very happy with that move car. Wow my dogs are complete neurotic head cases its going to take forever but I know there is no magic wand, I've looked Thank you so much for taking the time to help me I can't tell you how much I appreciate it . Jen
Re: BAT tips You've done such an incredible job with them. With the car - turn on the engine with a stationary car and make that one step then make the step after that moving the car. Would they eat in the car while it's still or are they too anxious for that? If they'll eat in the car try feeding them their dinner in the car. Any toys they like to play with? Try luring them through the open back doors of the car in a game of chase the toy. With the difficulty of catching a replacement behaviour...is there a moment when they stand still? Can you click that? Standing still would be a replacement behaviour, wouldn't it? Absolutely agree with all that has been said about it being essential to maintain a loose lead
Re: BAT tips I agree with Rachael, you have worked so hard with Scout and Scott. The car is a tricky one and having been through it myself I know It took me about 18 months to get Charlie into the car of his own accord, i.e. without me lifting him in I just left the boot open and put treats/toys in and let him investigate himself I did this for sometime, then I shut the boot with me sitting in the drivers seat, then eventually I turned the ignition on but did not move, then after that short trips to pick the boys up from School and whilst we were working through Total Recall we were going to lovely places for training, so all good associations with the car. I am pleased to say it all worked and now no problem. Is this BAT? I have just been working with Charlie on our driveway and a lead aggressive dog 'Jafa' walked past on the opposite side of the road, Charlie saw him but I got him to sit and gave him treats and praise until he had passed by, he didn't even bark Same yesterday another dog Murphy the Giant Schnauzer who doesn't like any dogs at all walked past on our side right outside our gate, again Charlie saw him but I got his attention by throwing his ball so his attention was diverted ??? It's so tricky to know exactly how to react when a situation crops up but I hope that these situations helped Charlie and that my reactions were correct :-\ Jen, just keep going it will work. x
Re: BAT tips Thank you Racheal and Helen. Top tips on car desensitising thank you. I'm so cross with myself for not having delt with it sooner. Standing still as a replacement behaviour sounds a good idea Rachael. They do stand still and it's an easy one to spot in both of them. I was going on the examples in the book which are things like looking away but I think a bigger movement will be much easier to spot especially if they are both together. BAT is operant counter conditioning Helen. I think what you did with Charlie and those dogs was counter conditioning. That's when you teach the dog to associate a good thing with a particular stimuli instead of a bad thing. eg Next time charlie sees murphy the giant schnauzer he might think your going to throw the ball. Certainly if you keep doing it whenever Murphy passess. With BAT you try to get the dog to change its behaviour itself be rewarding a different behaviour in place of the unwanted behaviour. It's basically an extension of clicker training but the dog is adjusting the behaviour rather than learning a new one. Traditional counter conditioning can be used as part of BAT. I hope that makes sense? and ive got it right ! ??? Sorry if I've explained stuff you already know. : Thanks again Jen
Re: BAT tips sounds good explanation to me jen! helen no you didnt do the wrong thing you were doing classical conditioning i think - if you mark and treat a dog in an aversive environment you change the dogs emotional association with that environment, and you can also capture correct decisions the dog makes while he is ' operating' in that environment - the operant conditioning bit...this is why operant conditioning for reactive dogs makes so much more sense to me than some of the less positive approaches Ive seen, dogs can learn different behaviours - one trainer who was very short lived in me and cuilli's life jabbed her hard in the ribs when she stiffened and barked at another dog and yelled No at her....and that taught cuillin what..??! interestingly after this her reactivity got worse....BAT and positive methods for me every time
Re: BAT tips Sorry Helen I don't think I explained properly you did do the right thing as Debsie has said. You did classical counter conditioning. I've used that a lot with my two with good results. For a dog like Charlie who might react to a trigger like the giant schnauzer but doesn't over react into panic like mine do counter conditioning works really well. For example If you keep attracting Charlie's attention with a ball every time you see the giant schnauzer he will start to associate the giant schnauzer with getting a ball thrown for him ie fun rather than having to bark so a much better association and behaviour. BAT tries to teach the dog to use an alternative behaviour before it hits the panic button to get the 'functional reward ' it wants in other words distance between them and the trigger.
Re: BAT tips I think I need to get the book and read about it as still not sure what I am doing, it's fascinating though Thanks Debsie and Jen x
Re: BAT tips www.empoweredanimals.com grisha Stewart's web site about BAT Helen . That's where I started I found it by accident. Your right Debsie reactivity and nervousness is not helped by aversive techniques. Surely that's common sense but it's surprising how some 'experts' can't work that out. :
Re: BAT tips This morning I finally got the chance to observe Scott and Scouts behaviour as they started reacting and then went over 'threshold', to try and spot an alternative behaviour than panic barking to reward. I knew they were going to bark and panic. 6am in the morning we nip down our lane before breakfast. This morning when we turned to go home a woman was coming towards us making no attempt to move across the road from us, the road is single track. She had a big, long coat on with a fur trimmed hood up so you couldn't see her face. I nearly felt like barking it was very odd ! ! My dogs didn't fail me and started to bark as she got next to us. It is difficult to observe what they do and be aware of everything else however I think I might have got a behaviour I can reward. I'm thinking of rewarding them when they react by getting a big head, if you know what I mean? It's not ideal as sometimes they react without a big head but I thought its somewhere to start. Also when we approach a trigger and they get a big head they don't always hit the panic button and bark. I'm assuming that means they can still 'self soothe' from that reaction which is what I need as an alternative behaviour. I have come up with a slight problem though that the book doesn't address. BAT says you reward the alternative behaviour by giving the dog it's 'functional reward' i.e. distance between the dog and the trigger, so you walk the dog away. My dogs didn't want to turn and walk away or they kept looking back. ??? I can understand why they did this. You don't want to turn your back on the scary monster do you? The book does not explain what is best to do in this scenario. Did cuillin do this Debsie (if your reading) Keep looking back at the trigger? If so what did you do?
Re: BAT tips I don't think it matters that they are continuing to look back at the trigger. I'd just keep walking away, even if this means kinda pulling them a bit. It's possible that they feel 'conflicted' about the trigger - unsure about whether to approach or depart. Plus I agree that it's a case of 'better keep my eye on the scary thing so it doesn't surprise me again'. I don't think it's a BAT thing but can you also reward with food for displaying the displacement behaviour or for moving away with you? I don't mean cueing them to move, but as an additional reward when you capture the voluntary displacement behaviour, especially when the 'moving away' opportunities are limited due to space. With the choice of displacement behaviour - what is the criterion for a displacement behaviour? Does it have to be a 'calming signal' type thing (head turning, standing still, sitting, lip licking, sniffing, yawning etc)? If so, do you think the 'big head' thing is a calming signal (ie. a self soothing/self regulating thing) or a 'step 1 on the ladder of arousal' thing?
Re: BAT tips Hi Rachael That's a good point and now you've said it your right the big head is more of an arousal thing than a calming thing. The reason I thought of it was because, as I said, I know the big head doesn't necessarily lead to panic so they must still be able to calm themselves. All the calming signals you listed are the same as in the BAT book. Thank you for pointing it out I could've complicated things more. : I will go back to your standing still idea. The problem is then, this morning I don't think there was a calming signal. They saw the lady coming, big head then barked when she slowed to a near stop to say hello. Perhaps if they go straight to reaction mode I should turn them away then reward when they have calmed down. Sorry to ask but what do you think ? I'm a bit stuck the book doesn't help with this. :-\ Food can be used as bonus rewards in BAT in the early stages in real life situations like you suggested, when space is tight and as a bonus for them moving away as long as you mark the moving away then give the food. Thank you for your advice Rachael. Jen
Re: BAT tips I think that in places that don't offer enough space I'd initiate a very early U-turn and exit the scene. At least then the dogs aren't getting to the 'over threshold' point. I guess that I would be backing out of situations that are looking like they will be still too close for them to cope. Do what you need to get the distance they need. It's not 'BAT' but I'd probably also teach an alternative behaviour that you can cue (eg 'sit' or 'sit and look at me' or 'touch my hand') for times when they are not offering their own displacement behaviour but you need to stop them fixating on something. I know that they are meant to learn to make the choice to do something other than react (given enough distance) but if, like some dogs, they are just fixated on the other dog/person then I think it'd still be constructive to cue an alternative that allows them to break their concentration and put their minds to work on something else. You'd still need a bit of distance up your sleeve for this to work. Another option is placing yourself between them and the trigger and herding them back. That might involve a tight lead as you position yourself, that's a downside. But body blocking can be useful at times (in an emergency) and it also creates a protective barrier for the dogs.
Re: BAT tips Thank you Rachael I really appreciate it. Im just desperate to find something that works, which might actually be adding to the problem I suppose . :-\ In my slight panic that I'd got it all wrong I'd forgotten that the first stage in 'BAT in the real world' is as soon as the dog sees the trigger you turn away, click then bonus reward with a treat. I think the thing that threw me today was that they don't usually react to somebody walking towards/passed us anymore. I guess the strange situation this morning freaked them out. I thought it was strange never mind them ! I guess when a trigger appears I need to try and quickly judge how I think they may react and then act appropriately. I will teach an alternative behaviour as well, like you suggest. I think that will be very useful. So much to do, so much to remember. : thank you again. Jen
Re: BAT tips It is hard....these situations can come on us so quickly. Obi often needs similar management and I definitely don't always get it right. Your thread has been really helpful for me too And that fur hood thing definitely sounds bark-worthy!!!
Re: BAT tips I'm sure my dogs do it on purpose to confuse me. ??? This morning was a very good example of why it's quite difficult/confusing to use BAT with Scott and Scout. Yesterday we met the lady with the hairy hood, they freaked and immediately hit the panic button. This morning on our big walk first we met Mr Retriever (I've always called him that he used to have two retrievers) and his cocker spaniel Poppy. Mr Retriever and Poppy get no adverse reaction from Scott and Scout. They acknowledge their presence with a calm look and that's it. I think it's because Poppy has no interest what so ever in Scott and Scout. She trots passed with hardly a glance then sits at a polite distance while Mr Retriever and I chat. Mr Retriever doesn't get a reaction because he has never tried to bother them. He doesn't try to stoke, he doesn't make prolonged eye contact, he doesn't lean over them or talk to them, he's jst there and thats ok. Even when he's had to stand very close because of a car or something they don't bother !!!!! About 10 minutes later we were rounding a bend and nearly walked straight into a paper girl with a big luminous yellow flapping bag. We moved into the road slightly to pass but not much because it was a bit dangerous on the bend. There are no pavements near us. Their reaction NOTHING no big panic, no over the top reaction, not even a big head, nothing. They turned their heads slightly to look as we passed but otherwise perfect behaviour and she'd surprised me never mind them. Oh what to do with them.
Re: BAT tips If only they could speak English Is the difference coming from whether people stare at them or not? Or from how much time they have to watch the person approach, think, get worried and wind themselves up? Is it coming from how much you yourself anticipate a problem? I guess they know Mr Retriever - he is not a stranger and is a confirmed non-threat. You and they both know that. Does saying hello (you saying a cheery hello) to the person (taking charge of the greeting) help at all?
Re: BAT tips Hi Rachael To all of your questions the answer is I don't know, there doesn't seem to be any obvious pattern. The eye contact I think does affect them more. Whether they watch somebody coming from a distance or they suddenly appear there doesn't seem to be a pattern . For example this morning the girl suddenly appeared they didn't react. Thursday morning a man appeared from around the front of a van they reacted ! ??? I usually say hello to people we meet anyway and again they may or may not react. My anticipation could have something to do with it for example I think I knew the man was going to appear from around the van. However watching people approaching, again, may or may not get a reaction although I'm not as sure about that. I know it depends on how much room they think they have. The wider the road the less chance of a reaction. Likewise perhaps the wider the road the less I'm anticipating a problem so they get less signals off me. ??? It's so complicated. I'm sorry you've got stuck with me again. :-\ I need to make a concerted effort not to give of reactive signals. That's not easy I've been trying not to tighten leads but it has become a reflex action and try to stay relaxed. I'm not sure what other signals there are. Also I think I need to take note in more detail when, where and how they react. Sorry I'm not sure I've made much sense. :
Re: BAT tips Very interesting. [quote author=Jen link=topic=4934.msg62893#msg62893 date=1395523641] My anticipation could have something to do with it for example I think I knew the man was going to appear from around the van. [/quote] I did wonder - when you said you felt like barking at the woman, in the hood, and you were surprised by the woman with the flapping bag (too surprised to react, maybe). Tricky job, you have here.
