Re: BAT tips Your right there Julie. Ok first job is to BAT myself. I have to desensitise myself to the things my dogs react to. Instead of anticipating a bad reaction from the dogs I have to give off positive vibes and believe they won't react rather than assume they will. After three years of it, although with improvement, it's not going to be easy. :-[ Apart from keeping leads loose anymore suggestions would be great. It is now ingrained in me as much as my dogs if you think about it.
Re: BAT tips Ummm....ok. Is it like a job interview? You can't just decide to be calm, relaxed, confident (that doesn't work). You have to imagine, and imagine, feeling like that. Be that, rehearse it. So when you get there, your brain goes onto automatic, and you just are and can think about what you're saying - instead of thinking (and failing) "Must relax! Hurry up! Relax!". Any help? :-\
Re: BAT tips Jen, they are a flipping mystery sometimes, these dogs. What about singing a song to yourself, or talking in a bright, happy voice to the dogs (and bugger what the approaching target thinks). Maybe the song could be something you also sing when they get their dinner. Got to go to flyball now but if I have any non-silly ideas I'll let you know! Don't forget how far you've come with them.
Re: BAT tips Thank you for the help. Perhaps if we skip along smiling and singing. I could sing 'don't worry be happy' song. Whoever is coming towards us will think I'm a nutter and keep well away so a win win. ;D Seriously though I'm going to try keep loose leads, walk confidently but relaxed and try not to walk directly towards the trigger but more of an angle maybe turned slightly to the dogs so I'm not giving off what dogs perceive as dominant body language towards the trigger. My walks are getting really complicated. It's remembering to do it that will be the problem. : . I bet we won't meet anybody for ages now to try it out.
Re: BAT tips Morning jen sorry just catching up on posts from weekend! They keep us on our toes these pups dont they . Ive been thinking about Scott and Scout reacting to the odd looking woman, and i reckon even laid back Brods might have had a small wuff at that...i dont think about these unusual situations as being 'reactive' and just work on the day to day stuff, if you know what i mean? I think if we try and micro manage environments toooo much it all gets complicated and can make it stressful for the dog....i get a bit unsure about all the BAT intricacies as well but try to just do what works for C in a given situation. Cuilli will look back at dogs sometimes too but only if they're barking at her, and laid back brods does that too so i just ignore if shes not reacting or if she is stuff a bit of sausage under her nose ;D I think Rachaels advice is good, and the other thing i was wondering was could you go somewhere a wee bit busier with the dogs so you dont have to rely on random meetings, and also just get them used to busier environments? Im trying to picture where you live and i have an image of quiet lovely countryside....did scott and scout spend much time out and about in a slightly busier environment when they were wee? If not might be an idea to just get them used to a more peopley environment?? Remember im a novice though so this might be nonense. and yes keep the faith act nonchelant and avoid head on meetings sounds great!
Re: BAT tips Hi Debsie. Tanks for the advice as always I really appreciate it. I feel I'm causing loads of hassle with this one. : You are right I need to expose them to busier situations. I don't really want to do it but I know I need to. :-[ Just had a really good walk though this morning. . Met two lots of dogs a single then a pair. We meet them every so often and I know both sets are very reactive dogs especially the first one. His name is Toby, he is a rescue lab/staffi cross, only young and a real handfull. He doesn't usually bark but lunges at us. Scott and Scout behaved perfectly, I'm very pleased to report, both times. When I knew they'd seen the dogs I got my stinky fishy treats out and told them I'll go first (thanks debsie for that tip it works ) As we passed, even though Toby lunged towards us they turned to me !!!!!! I'm under no illusion it was for the fish but who cares. ;D To be honest we rarely have too much reaction to other dogs now. They totally associate dog coming with fishy treat once passed nicely. If they react no fish. I have a question about keeping a loose lead. When they first see a trigger they will go to the end of the lead. Not pulling but the lead will be tight. As we get near they back off and end up by my side or even slightly behind.( When they are barking like nutters they are usually just behind me. : ) My natural reaction when they go to the end of the lead is to pull them back and wrap the lead around my hand. Should I just leave them to do what they want ? I don't know if leaving them at the end of the lead will build up the reactivity more or less than pulling them back which I'm guessing does increase their reactivity because they are then restricted by the lead. I thought the same as you, eventually, Debsie about the hood woman. It was just one of those things. I think it started me panicking a bit though and made me forget how much they have actually improved. Sorry I've gone on a bit with this post. : Jen
Re: BAT tips Hi Jen, reading all of your posts and the replies has really helped me with Harley. I have been concentrating on lead walking and trying to find out what triggers her when she pulls or lunges. I have being trying out the suggestions on her and they have really helped. So, thank you x
Re: BAT tips I think I've got it. I think I've finally got a calm alternative behaviour and it's an easy one to spot in future although Iam going to try another practise before I'm certain. The behaviour is looking at me !!!!!! How easy is that to spot !?!?! : I'd asked our neighbour down the lane if next time he was outside and we were walking up the road if he could start walking towards us. I explained why. : The dogs don't usually mind him when we stop to talk but he never comes too close and doesn't bother with them so I thought if he came purposely towards us it would probably trigger them, also they are usually worse with men. This morning he appeared on the lane and started coming. The dogs started to look around at me and then back at him from about 10 metres. At first I didn't take this as a behaviour, i thought it was too far away but when we got to about 5 metres Scott stopped looking at me and kept looking at him. At about 2metres Scott started to bark. Scout didn't and Scott stopped and calmed down quickly when I told him 'no its ok' and we walked back to our neighbours gate with him. We then stood chatting for awhile and the dogs didn't bother at all they actually lay down although he was now at a much more polite distance. : I should add that although throughout this thread I've been worrying about how bad my dogs are they have improved a lot. At one time they would've started barking at 10 metres and they wouldn't have stopped barking when told only when they wanted to. I'm going to have another practise with this behaviour though in case I influenced it in anyway but hopefully we can start BATting ;D
Re: BAT tips Yep, looking at you sounds like a goer! If they get to the end of the lead and they're still not reacting but they won't look at you then I'd probably call them back (cue an alternative behaviour). But if they are barking and going crazy I'd probably just try to get out of there. Or, if they are behind you, use the body blocking technique (walk towards them as if herding them backwards) and they may even stop barking which you could then mark. No idea if that's BAT but it's what I'd try And don't apologise for this thread!! It's a really interesting thread Really does sound to me like they are going brilliantly well. Their progress is a huge credit to you.
Re: BAT tips Thank you Rachael . I'm hoping perhaps I will have progress to post next. Who am I kidding something is bound to crop up I need advice/ help with.
Re: BAT tips Guess what I need opinion/advice. I knew it wouldn't take long. : This mornings walk was very good. We met two lots of dogs. I kept a loose lead both times. The first dog Scott and Scout looked at me so I marked and rewarded. Unfortunately there was nowhere for us to go to get much distance. If we'd turned around it would've been about 5 minutes to a field so I used the 'I'll go first' technique with high value treats. This is one of the problems I have with BAT I have to improvise with the functional reward as on some stretches of our walk there is nowhere to go. I put as much distance as I can between them and the trigger and reward no reaction. I'm hoping it will still work. ??? The second dog unfortunately took us by surprise coming around a big bend. It was Toby who as I've mentioned is very reactive. Scott and Scout didn't have time to do the look at me behaviour they went straight to staring so I cued 'look at me' which I've been teaching them. They did ;D . I marked and rewarded. Unfortunately scout did grumble a little bit as we passed but Toby was lunging at us and dancing at the end of his lead so I can't blame him and he did stop as soon as I said no. Do you think it would be rude to suggest they try BAT or at least something with Toby !!!! I was wondering, if the natural alternative behaviour I'm rewarding is looking at me then in situations were I have to cue look at me will it still have the same effect because they are doing the same behaviour ? With BAT the alternative behaviour should be something they do naturally not cued so they learn their own behaviour but I'm cuing the thing they do naturally so I'm assuming I'm not confusing anything and they should still learn that that behaviour is what gets the reward before the need to panic. I'm not sure I've made sense sorry. :
Re: BAT tips I know that cueing the behaviour isn't BAT but I really don't think that using a cue when you need it will be disruptive or confusing. It's the same behaviour (look at you) that is consistently getting the reward (move away and relax or food treat). There is no inconsistency or mixed message there. Also, if you think about it, when they look at you without a cue from you they are still acting on a cue....the other dog/person is the cue. There is always a cue. And even if the cue comes from you, they are still choosing whether or not to do as you've asked, as your cue is only a request. I would expect that over time they will start to voluntarily offer the 'look at you' even in the situations that you need to use your cue in right now. That is, the other dog/person will be the only cue they need. It really sounds like you and they did really well this morning. Really, for Scout to only do a little grumble in response to a barking and lunging dog - that is sensational!
Re: BAT tips Thank you Rachael That's what I was thinking about cuing 'look at me'. It should hopefully become automatic whatever the stress situation. Then they get the calming reward. I just wanted to check I was right to think that so thank you. I don't want to complicate things more by doing the wrong thing. : I was very pleased with how well they behaved yesterday with the lunging dog. Maybe we are making progress.
Re: BAT tips I think I've found another calming behaviour my dogs do connected with 'look at me'. They lick their lips. I've been practising 'look at me' randomly as we walk and treating when they do. I've also been practising it when something gets their attention like the cat or somebody they know, like and want to go to. I've noticed whether I cue 'look at me' or they do it voluntarily they lick their lips. From that I'm guessing that whether it's cued or voluntary 'look at me' gives them the same feeling. I've also been thinking about BAT. When you've read through all the jargon and things that make it seem more complicated than it is, I think the basic concept is if you can keep the dog 'sub threshold ' (jargon) it can learn. They can then learn they don't need to panic or fear people. When in panic mode dogs don't learn so even though they may meet a person over and over they don't learn there is nothing to fear. My dogs are a good example of this. We've been meeting the same people for nearly three years and they still bark, although they have improved a lot. They will stop on command and the bark doesn't sound as panicked. Does it matter then how you keep the dog 'sub threshold' ? Obviously the best way is to let the dog learn without interference or distraction but in my experience so far that's an ideal world not the real world. ??? I could be very wrong but I think I'm going to try just keeping my dogs calm the best way I can in their high stress situations and assume/hope the 'no need to panic ' will filter through. : I'm I doing the right thing though ? :-\
Re: BAT tips Hi jen...ive also adopted my own spproach with BAT, as its impossible to keep cuilli's environment the way it needs to be all the time and for all the stages. I think of it as firstly working at getting a displacement behaviour that isnt barking when shes sees a dog she doesnt know and looks a bit edgy, then just seeing if she will choose that herself- for cuilli now its nearly always a look at me then ball or treat .. she actually chooses to look at me know without me asking so im taking that as her controlling her own need for calm, sort of oh cripes dont like that dog, i know Ill look at mum and then something else will happen so i dont need to bark...? My friend had her lead the other day when a dog ran up and started barking at her. My friend sort of tightened the lead and cuilli started to look stressed....i just very quietly said hey Cuilli, and the look of relief on her wee face was very clear- she instantly went into look at me mode and trotted over to me to get a sausage, no barking. Friends walking behind us said they saw her relief when she was given that alternative rather than engage....so i dont know if its strictly operant conditioning but its working....i think you are doing an awesome job with Scott snd Scout, they are lucky to have you
Re: BAT tips You sound to be making progress. I can't help with the questions. Although I struggle with some of Charlie's behaviour, it's at the other end of the spectrum and he goes wild with happiness and excitement, not nerves and panic. [quote author=Jen link=topic=4934.msg64519#msg64519 date=1396094852] I think I've found another calming behaviour my dogs do connected with 'look at me'. They lick their lips. [/quote] Would you giving calming signals help? Just as a joke, mine and Charlie's party trick is me making Charlie go to sleep by yawning, closing my eyes slowly, and looking away. Charlie copies me, settles down and sleeps. There is a video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgnLgHFRJu4&list=PL163C5A3565C8EAB9 (although I think you've seen this, as I think we've discussed it before). The only time I used it apart from amusement was in the vet's with an aggressive bulldog. I was trying to do everything to tell Charlie we were cool while people got the bulldog under control. I think it worked a bit. Although Charlie-fool was really only trying to go play with the bulldog anyway.
Re: BAT tips Interesting....brods gives cuilli calming signals sometimes if shes getting nadgery. He'll nudge her with his muzzle, and lick his lips...or is he calming himself because cuilli is nadgery...anyway that will soothe her if she is only at early nadger phase...
Re: BAT tips I think the calming signal is a communication to another dog or a response to a calming signal in acknowlegement? So Brods is calming Cuilli? Charlie is big on calming signals when he is off lead. If he still is when we get back off lead, I'll video some for fun. He is so obvious I think he's read the book. He doesn't like it if other dogs don't respond, but most do.
