Bettering the breed?

Discussion in 'Labrador Breeding & Genetics' started by JakesMom, Feb 15, 2019.

  1. JakesMom

    JakesMom Registered Users

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    Whenever you talking about breeding someone always throws in the "bettering the breed" comment. You hear about "breed standards" and reputable breeders vs backyard breeders. I think we all agree that responsible breeders will health test and get OFA certifications, whether they breed as a hobby or as a business. That being said, what does bettering the breed really mean. American/field labs and English/bench labs are built very differently and have usually have different personalities. British labs tend to be smaller. They don't all fit the standard. Much like people, labs come in many shapes and sizes. When looking at a lot of the Champion pedigrees from professional breeders, I'm seeing inbreeding. How is that bettering the breed? I see dogs that fit the standard with terrible hips and elbow. Shouldn't breeding healthy, happy labs be more important than breeding for titles and standards? I'm not showing dogs. I'm not hunting dogs. I love the breed for their temperament as pets and I love big cuddly labs, over 100lbs. So tell me, what does bettering the breed really mean?
     
  2. Michael A Brooks

    Michael A Brooks Registered Users

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    Hi @JakesMom

    Interesting post.

    Breeders act as special interest groups and lobby against some rules and regulations that would favour the unrepresented interests of disparate consumers/owners. The problem of special interest groups having considerable power to determine legislation is not unique to area of dogs. The phenomenon rules a good deal of the agenda of politics in democratic, and non-democratic countries.

    To be sure, not all breeders are solely interested in profits, and I would imagine, all would say they have the interests of the animals at the foremost. I don't accept the claim, at least from some breeders. Actions speak louder than words. One has to only look at the GSD, Bulldog, Boxer to see the appalling state of some of those dogs to understand that some so-called caring breeders, did not have the interests of those breeds in mind.

    The answer to your question? Betterment has multiple meanings, as you point out, depending on who is doing the talking.

    Even setting aside special interest issues, betterment will be an ill-defined term because we owners have multiple objectives. Some trade-offs will need to be made. Not all owners, for example, want high-drive dogs.
     
  3. Bud Light/Dilly Dilly

    Bud Light/Dilly Dilly Registered Users

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    I’m interested in this cause I’ve never heard what people find wrong about breeding GSD’s. Those are German Shepards right? I’m assuming the Boxer and Bull Dog breeders get criticized because they breed dogs with short snouts. But just curious what the problems with GSD’s were....
     
  4. Michael A Brooks

    Michael A Brooks Registered Users

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  5. Bud Light/Dilly Dilly

    Bud Light/Dilly Dilly Registered Users

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  6. Ski-Patroller

    Ski-Patroller Cooper, Terminally Cute

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    True in the USA also. I believe the AKC breed standard specified the slope, and perhaps as a result there were a lot of GSDs with hip displasia. I think GSDs were one of the dogs that suffered from TV (Rin Tin Tin) induced popularity. They are great dogs, but they were too popular for their own good, and for the wrong reasons, since they are not appropriate for a lot of people.
     
  7. Ski-Patroller

    Ski-Patroller Cooper, Terminally Cute

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    Personally I think "Bettering the Breed" should refer to breeding healthy dogs that are fit for purpose. While I favor the Field style dogs, I think the variations within the Lab breed probably make for healthier dogs, when the different lines are crossed. A lot of the Lab temperament must come from the fact that gun dogs have to work with other dogs and people they have never met, and consequently that is a desirable trait for breeders to work towards. Of course it is actually included in the breed standard.
     
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  8. JakesMom

    JakesMom Registered Users

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    I'm aware of the problems caused by trying to breed to, what I see, as unreasonable standards. As you pointed out the GSD(my aunt bred GSD) and the almost crouched back legs that have led to so many health issues. Labs are being breed to the same such standard such as tucked elbows, otter tails, overly blocky heads, ect. It's no wonder there are so many problems with hips and elbows.
    I guess my point is that, as you said, bettering the breed means something different to each person. I keep seeing people verbally attacking each other over these differences but shouldn't the health of the breed be more important than the standard? Whether you're breeding healthy dogs should be more important than whether they're American, English, smaller, larger, thicker, thinner, ect. It really doesn't matter what style/size/coat type your dogs are, they are still Labradors. They are still wonderful family members. As long as they are healthy and happy, shouldn't that be what's most important?
     
  9. JakesMom

    JakesMom Registered Users

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    In case anyone hasn't figured this out, I have been verbally attacked by people quoting "bettering the breed" and "Breed standards". My boy is very healthy, has a great drive and has mellow loving personality. His great grandfather is MH Mt McKinley Mr Midnight MNH7. He has other champions in his line as well. My intent is the have him fully tested and breed him to a female with the same qualities when he is old enough. My goal is not to breed show dogs. My goal it to breed HEALTHY dogs. So where is the problem you may be wondering. Well, he is definitely not a standard size lab. He is huge. His mom(108) and dad(147) are huge, his grandfather(153) was huge. All very healthy, just really big. We would like to carry on this trait with a large female. No one has a problem with it until they find out his size. How big is he? In my picture, he is 6 1/2 months and about 85lbs. Though he is large in size, he definitely has all the qualities that will add to the breed, not take away.
     
  10. Jo Laurens

    Jo Laurens Registered Users

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    For me, 'bettering the breed', means breeding for a specific purpose and goal. This could be hunting or field work, or it may be agility, obedience, tracking, search and rescue, therapy work - and so on - or it may be a combination of these. But the breeder is choosing which two dogs to put together to achieve a specific purpose. The breeder is not just fancying a litter of puppies and not putting much thought into choosing mates.

    Of course health-testing should be taken as a given.

    But why? Because you just kinda like very large labradors? For no purpose whatsoever?

    I will have to join those you accuse of attacking you on this one. If you said you wanted to breed large labradors because you needed them to be physically able to break through ice in Canadian winters when shooting, or because you were working on a line of labradors which could do cart-work or you need to select for larger dogs because you do therapy work and kids need to be able to lean on the dog somewhat and feel supported.... then I'd be all behind you with that.

    But to breed larger dogs.... just because you feel like breeding larger dogs? Er, no.... And this has nothing to do with the perspective of showing or breed standards, either.

    The thing is - it won't be up to you, anyway. Because you own the male dog. The bitch owner will look at the 'marketplace' of male dogs around, and they will select a male dog which THEY like. And your dog will be in direct competition with titled dogs (in performance and conformation) and the bitch owner will need to prefer yours, over theirs. Because they are choosing a male dog which will SELL the puppies which are produced. And when they can easily choose a titled and fully health tested stud dog who is proven and desirable, it's going to take a lot for them to choose yours...

    It's a buyer's market and the buyer is the bitch owner.
     
  11. JakesMom

    JakesMom Registered Users

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    Actually, our goal IS to breed large labs for therapy work. Jake has the calmest demeaner of any lab I've ever met. He is naturally gentle with everyone and seems to know who needs extra TLC. Our vet is very impressed by his temperament and the soundness of his build. They say he's the best behaved lab they've ever met.
    As for the bitch, we intend on being the owners. We will be looking for very specific qualities in her to ensure a good pairing. There is more to this than just aesthetics. We are also looking at function as well as a family pet and long term health.
     
  12. Jo Laurens

    Jo Laurens Registered Users

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    Hmm. Sorry, but I just hear the 'oh my vet says my dog is so amazing' and 'my trainer says I should definitely breed her' all the time.

    The majority of the breeders of therapy dogs I know, have close connections with the organisations who they produce dogs for. It just doesn't work that Joe Public buys a dog, then buys another dog - and breeds dogs which reputable therapy dog training organisations take....

    It just sounds like back yard breeding to me. In a world where we have zillions of dogs euthanised every week because we have too many dogs, we need to have high standards and good reasoning behind bringing more into the world.
     
  13. Ski-Patroller

    Ski-Patroller Cooper, Terminally Cute

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    I agree with Jo, though I don't think many pure bred Labs get euthanized here. Even the back yard breeders can get $800 to $1000 for a pup. It still blows my mind that cross breed designer dogs (read Labradoodles and Goldendoodles) usually bring more than pure bred labs.
     
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  14. JakesMom

    JakesMom Registered Users

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    I'm sorry you feel that way. I understand that you don't know me and you've heard it all before and that you have very strong opinions. I can respect that. I am doing the currently waiting on genetics test results on both pups. If either one is a carrier of any genetic issues that dog will be fixed and kept as a pet. I'm not comfortable with people breeding dogs that are carriers of genetic issues. When they are old enough, they will both have their hips, elbows and eyes certified through OFA. If either of them is less than good/excellent, that dog will not be bred. Again, they will be fixed and be our pets. They will be getting their CGC. I am also in contact with the therapy dog group in my area. I could go on and on but I won't. If that makes me a backyard breeder, then I'll be the best darn "backyard breeder" I can with the healthiest puppies around.
     
  15. Aisling Labs

    Aisling Labs Registered Users

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    This is a troublesome topic of debate. Talk to 20 Breeders and you'll likely get 10 different OPINIONs on just what betterment of the breed really means. Talk to 20 owners who don't breed and you'll likely get 10 or 15 different opinions. It is the nature of the beast.

    So, what does it mean to me? It means first and foremost to compare a dog that I'd like to breed to the Standard. Why? Because Breeders a long time ago were breeding to develop the dog we know today as the Labrador Retriever with all of its good points...the temperament that makes them excellent service dogs, field companions, fireside companions and so on. When we don't follow the standard, we risk losing part or all of those things that make the Labrador what it is.

    That standard includes height and weight and balance as well as coloring and temperament all of which enable the individual dog to do what it was bred to do and/or be a wonderful companion.

    So, I have a dog that fits the standard. The next step is to have the appropriate health tests done and determine what genes that dog may carry that could affect its offspring. The results show that the dog has excellent hips and normal elbows and is clear for every disease it was tested for except for one...and for that one, the dog is a carrier. Other than that one thing, the dog is perfect for a breeding program. Do you alter the dog and remove it because it carries a recessive gene? No. You find a mate for the dog that doesn't carry that mutated, recessive gene.

    Now, you have a litter on the ground and you have decided on two of the puppies from which to choose your next generation....you know that because one of the parents was a carrier of a mutated gene, part of your decision is made based upon genetic testing of the two puppies. All things being otherwise equal, you choose the one who DOES NOT carry that recessive gene. You have improved the breed by improving the breeding stock and you have protected the breed by breeding TO THE STANDARD. All the other puppies are homed on spay/neuter contracts. (If both puppies are clear of the gene and you have an interested breeder, that second puppy goes there.)

    And a word about hips....one reads a lot about not choosing a puppy from a parent that has a "fair" rating on hips and elbows, yet "fair" is within the normal range. This usually indicates a less than thorough understanding of the OFA testing procedure. It is a fact that two parents with "Excellent" ratings can and do produce dogs who are borderline or dysplastic upon being evaluated by the OFA while two "Fairs" can produce several offspring with "Excellent" ratings. Many of the most recent studies are showing that Hip dysplasia is between 50 and 70% the result of ENVIRONMENT.

    5 Decades of breeding dogs with only "normal" ratings on hips has NOT eliminated dysplasia....education of dog owners is what is needed every bit as much as scoring the hips of the parents.



     
  16. Becky Dailey

    Becky Dailey Registered Users

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    My breeder never breeds her females until after a 2 year testing for any hip dysplasia. She keeps complete genetic testing from 4 generations of the dogs family tree.
     

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