Re: Bonkers behaviour when meeting other dogs [quote author=UncleBob link=topic=5737.msg73788#msg73788 date=1399277060] [quote author=LabinBath link=topic=5737.msg73786#msg73786 date=1399276290]... Unfortunately after coming home and being fed breakfast half an hour later he deposited most of it in tidy pile on the carpet ...[/quote] You may find that 1/2 hour after exercise is a little soon - pretty sure that I've read that it's best to aim for a gap of 45 mins to an hour between exercise and food (before and after). Thanks for the training write-up. Very interesting. [/quote] Thanks Bob we'll try that. He doesn't gulp his food down in any great hurry, in fact still wanders back to check what we're up to most of the time before going back to it. We gave him a little more of his pedigree kibble but he really wasn't interested in it!
Re: Bonkers behaviour when meeting other dogs Don't worry too much about one vomit But I agree with UncleBob that a bit more of a gap might be worth a try. Maybe also moistening the food with some water. Lovely to hear that your training went well today
Re: Bonkers behaviour when meeting other dogs Really good to hear you are moving forward , Dog Food is personal preference James Wellbeloved is a Hypoallergenic food so if he was having Pedigree before he came to you he should be ok with most foods , The food you have chosen is out of choice but most dog foods are the same despite what the makers claim a 15kg bag costing £45.00 is genrally no better than one costing £20.00 . Mike
Re: Bonkers behaviour when meeting other dogs So some updates on Dexter! On Monday we went down to the family farm and Dexter loved the off leash time around the field and ran up to us on recall every time with us running away from him. He was pretty polite with meeting four new people in the farmhouse (we had given guidelines on how they should act) he was actually more interested in the new smells tbh! Great in car journeys as well. We have been practicing walking to heel and then walking him on the harness in the morning and at lunch time, then taking him up to the racecourse for a proper run around off leash where possible. He is pretty much unable to focus when he is too excited, depending on the distraction, depends how quickly he calms down, for example, we wanted to do a short bit of heel work before the off leash time but 1 minute after getting out of car a Scottie dog came past and he stopped, looked at the dog (got clicked and a reward for this) then he got excited and started pulling and going nuts, they actually got nose to nose and were quite friendly then Dexter went too far and walked on top of the little dog, licking his bits, bum, just no manners! He was then completely out of focus and could't do anything like walking to heel. He seems particularly bad on his walk with Francesca in the mornings when he has recharged his batteries to 100% overnight and has too much energy to concentrate on the task of walking nicely. So he ends up on the harness and pulling. Normally he midday walk is better, yesterday I had him walking superbly for 10 minutes. A quick question, we understand the difference of clipping his lead to his collar when we want to train him to heel, we then switch to the harness and he can pull without it affecting the heel work because he'll feel the difference, however it is still very annoying! The harness he has attaches at the back and almost encourages him to pull and lunge when he pleases, does anyone have any recommendations for harnesses that will suppress this a little? I've looked at the Freedom and Halti ones, but they seem to need two hands on two leads, not sure how you'd click/reward, then there is the Sense-action one which attaches to the front of the harness with the lead, any opinions on these or others? Or should we just accept he is going to pull until he gets better at the heel work? And on another note, the up-chucking post meal has stopped, feeding him 45-60 mins after exercise seems to have done the trick! Poos are more solid and he is farting waaaay less! He really likes the JWB esp mixed with a little warm water to bring the flavour out.
Re: Bonkers behaviour when meeting other dogs I think Dexter is related to my Charlie! You still have to train walking nicely in a harness - even in a front fastening harness. A straightforward front fastening harness might help, but it's not a magic wand, you still have to train otherwise you'll just end up with a dog being pulled round towards you all the time and not walking properly (which is probably not good for the dog). If you are up for it, just view every single walk on the lead as a training walk. This is what I did (and still do in new areas). It takes a while, but it's the fastest way to get to a dog that walks properly on lead (well, without using a punishment anyway). I use a back fastening harness only where it's impossible, such as a vet's waiting room (these days I don't even do that, but only because my dog hates harnesses, if he didn't I would always use a back fastening harness). I honestly think the absolutely best thing you can do with a dog that pulls is walk him in a back fastening harness and teach him to walk without pulling when he is wearing it. That said, your strategy of training on a collar and using a harness otherwise is not a bad one at all.
Re: Bonkers behaviour when meeting other dogs Sorry, I should also have said - my boy is still a challenge on the first walk of the day when he needs a poo! It just took a bit longer to teach him that he still has to walk nicely even when he needs a poo and is looking for the right spot. Outrageous, he said: "You can't be serious! All that training still applies when I need a poo? Surely not?" Yes, said I, and when it's windy, it's rubbish day so the dustbins are out, there is a leaf blowing along...and so on.
Re: Bonkers behaviour when meeting other dogs I agree with what Julie has said. We sell front fastening harnesses at our dog club. When first fitted they can make a difference as it's new for the dog and they're unsure. But unless the handlers capitalise on that and absolutely refuse to be pulled then a week later you see them being dragged round the grounds just like before. With whatever device you're going to commit to training with you do need to have a 'cold turkey, not one step of pulling allowed' policy and be prepared to apply it forever (gets much easier once the pulling is pretty much extinguished). Marking and rewarding for good loose lead walking is important too. Also it's important to never be the one to tighten the lead. The dog should be the only one who makes the lead tighten and the consequence for that is stopping. It all does work as long as you are steadfast
Re: Bonkers behaviour when meeting other dogs Hi there ,I used a front fastening harness during the height of our pulling but I also put a lot of time in using Pippas articles and advice on here about retraining loose lead walking.Dexter still needs management,if he's not reminded,he can think that the walking nicely time is over and it's ok to pull again so there are more verbal reminders to 'walk' which is his to retrained and renamed heel command ( heel was so contaminated :-[) than I would like and every so often I drop him a treat and tell him 'Good Walk' .....
Re: Bonkers behaviour when meeting other dogs We're feeling pretty rubbish after taking him up to the racecourse this evening. Plan was to do a short session of lead walking (we even had fresh chicken as a reward) and then let him have some off lead time etc. However, he behaved so badly, basically doing backflips, spinning, lunging in every direction as soon as we got him on the collar, had to switch to the harness as we were getting nowhere. Now I know this is an area regularly walked by dogs, whether the scents/wind/open space was just too much for him I don't know. He did keep mostly pulling towards the area we were at last time where he was off leash, so he may have just been crazy with excitement to get there and go nuts. Of course with such pulling we were literally rooted to the spot, as we didn't want to give him the ultimate reward of going off leash with that behaviour as that I guess would simply encourage him to do it again and again? Another dog walker with a golden retriever about 75m away got his attention and then he really went mental. He literally would have been there in a flash had he not been on the lead. I can't quite imagine how long this is going to take until he sees another dog in a normal way. We tried the stand and wait and have him give us some slack, as at this point we decided it was home time, but then he would simply throw himself forward every step we took. His attention certainly wasn't on us and for the split seconds that he did relent and turn round and actually sit down he got a click and a treat, but this still didn't get him focused. We eventually got back to the car and drove home giving him the silent treatment and feeling pretty frazzled and sad. What should we be doing in this situation? Simply let him think every time we go up there he gets to pull and then have fun times off leash? Or get him to learn some patience? Have another 1-1 with Colin tomorrow so we'll see if he acts up then as well. S & F
Re: Bonkers behaviour when meeting other dogs I don't know whether this helps...but yup, all too familiar with those frazzling experiences. You maybe don't know the story of my boy - he ruptured his cruciate, and after mainly being an off lead dog was suddenly on crate rest and lead walks at 9 months. Ok, I admit, we both thought lead walking was a bore (we still do) and apart from "doing our lessons" in heel work, we were never on lead. Well, what a shock I got. My boy behaved exactly like you describe yours is behaving. An excited, frustrated, young and energetic labrador who doesn't get to blow off his energy off lead (or not that often in your case). 6 months later, we're still on lead. And have another 2 months to go... How long does it take to get some control? Here is something I wrote on January 13 2014: [quote author=JulieT link=topic=3952.msg46781#msg46781 date=1389634843] So, we got out in the pupmobile tonight. I can't say it went well. We walked half way across a small field, and back to the car. It took 30 minutes. He went nuts. I had my wonderful, wonderful, sensible and experienced dog walker with me and thank goodness. We had to take it in turns to hold him (he was on his thick, padded, back fastening harness, of course - again, and thank goodness). I honestly don't think I've seen a dog so badly behaved on a lead before. Anyway, we weren't really walking. We were progressing forward in the time it took us to stop and stand still. At the very end, we managed 3 x 10 steps of loose lead walking, with a cheese lure. Part of me wants to cry at such dismal progress, and part of me is happy that we managed something at the end. Honestly, you would have thought this dog hadn't had one minute of training in his life. [/quote] So, 4 months later (I think you can deduct 6 weeks off that for the operation and immediate recovery - plus you could deduct more for being able to let your boy off lead sometimes, and no crate rest) I can have a more or less civilised walk around Wimbledon Common at quiet times. Other dogs on lead are only a minor problem for us. Dogs off lead can still be a major problem. And really busy places with off lead dogs, kids playing football and tennis and so on are still a complete nightmare. You will get there. It's difficult, but plan your attack, pick your battles, focus on being consistent and sorting one thing at a time, and you will see improvements quickly. The very, very, best of luck to you! Your lovely boy will be a lovely, well behaved dog - but it's a fair bit of work.
Re: Bonkers behaviour when meeting other dogs [quote author=JulieT link=topic=5737.msg74675#msg74675 date=1399493276] I don't know whether this helps...but yup, all too familiar with those frazzling experiences. You maybe don't know the story of my boy - he ruptured his cruciate, and after mainly being an off lead dog was suddenly on crate rest and lead walks at 9 months. Ok, I admit, we both thought lead walking was a bore (we still do) and apart from "doing our lessons" in heel work, we were never on lead. Well, what a shock I got. My boy behaved exactly like you describe yours is behaving. An excited, frustrated, young and energetic labrador who doesn't get to blow off his energy off lead (or not that often in your case). 6 months later, we're still on lead. And have another 2 months to go... How long does it take to get some control? Here is something I wrote on January 13 2014: [quote author=JulieT link=topic=3952.msg46781#msg46781 date=1389634843] So, we got out in the pupmobile tonight. I can't say it went well. We walked half way across a small field, and back to the car. It took 30 minutes. He went nuts. I had my wonderful, wonderful, sensible and experienced dog walker with me and thank goodness. We had to take it in turns to hold him (he was on his thick, padded, back fastening harness, of course - again, and thank goodness). I honestly don't think I've seen a dog so badly behaved on a lead before. Anyway, we weren't really walking. We were progressing forward in the time it took us to stop and stand still. At the very end, we managed 3 x 10 steps of loose lead walking, with a cheese lure. Part of me wants to cry at such dismal progress, and part of me is happy that we managed something at the end. Honestly, you would have thought this dog hadn't had one minute of training in his life. [/quote] So, 4 months later (I think you can deduct 6 weeks off that for the operation and immediate recovery - plus you could deduct more for being able to let your boy off lead sometimes, and no crate rest) I can have a more or less civilised walk around Wimbledon Common at quiet times. Other dogs on lead are only a minor problem for us. Dogs off lead can still be a major problem. And really busy places with off lead dogs, kids playing football and tennis and so on are still a complete nightmare. You will get there. It's difficult, but plan your attack, pick your battles, focus on being consistent and sorting one thing at a time, and you will see improvements quickly. The very, very, best of luck to you! Your lovely boy will be a lovely, well behaved dog - but it's a fair bit of work. [/quote] Thank you Julie that has really helped. Great advice and feel a bit better about it. We are only into the start of the SECOND WEEK and maybe expectations are running away with us It's just as you describe, our lovely happy boy turns into a complete nutcase with no regard for us when he gets it in his head that he is doing what he wants! I get far more out of him during the 5-10 min heel work around the local streets with only relatively minor infractions when things turn up unexpectedly like neighbours cats. It's definitely about picking your battles and focusing on the small steps, quite literally when walking with him. The third glass of wine is helping me see sense! Charlie sounds very similar to Dexter you're right. Is he neutered? Do you think this would help at all with calming Dexter down? We've had conflicting advice from people with the possible benefits and downfalls.
Re: Bonkers behaviour when meeting other dogs When I was training Penny to walk nicely on the lead I had to go totally back to basics. We didn't go anywhere she men as she was always worse when she knew where we were going. She had no off lead walks for about two weeks whilst we worked really intensively on her pulling. Once she was getting the hang of it we started walking the routes she knew but not going in to the park - so just walking past it. If we were having a good day I would let her go in the lark for off lead time but often it used to take a long time to actually get into to the gate with the stopping and starting. But she did pick it up eventually. You will have days where you just want to pack it all in and just give in to his pulling but honestly, just stick with it and your hard work will be rewarded. If I remember correctly your pup is about 6 months old? So he's reaching adolescence where he wants to assert his independence and do whatever he wants. If you stick at it and work extra hard once he comes out the other side of this phase you should have a lovely dog.
Re: Bonkers behaviour when meeting other dogs Neutering is a whole other kettle of fish, and as you have experienced there are many conflicting theories on whether it actually helps to calm behaviour or not. My theory is that your pups behaviour is purely excitement based, and not necessarily hormonal. So removing the hormones may not help. I could be way out on that and I'm sure someone more knowledgable can give you some better advice on that one.
Re: Bonkers behaviour when meeting other dogs [quote author=LabinBath link=topic=5737.msg74684#msg74684 date=1399494288] We are only into the start of the SECOND WEEK and maybe expectations are running away with us [/quote] It'll be up and down, sometimes seems to get better, sometimes worse. Then you'll look back and realise how much progress you've made. It does take a little while though. [quote author=LabinBath link=topic=5737.msg74684#msg74684 date=1399494288] Charlie sounds very similar to Dexter you're right. Is he neutered? Do you think this would help at all with calming Dexter down? We've had conflicting advice from people with the possible benefits and downfalls. [/quote] Charlie is an intact dog. Views do vary, but if I thought for one microsecond that castrating Charlie would help with the excitement levels, I'd have him booked in for the operation tomorrow. I honestly do not believe it would make any difference at all. The only thing that is going to help is to train, and train, and train.
Re: Bonkers behaviour when meeting other dogs [quote author=Penny+Me link=topic=5737.msg74685#msg74685 date=1399494391] When I was training Penny to walk nicely on the lead I had to go totally back to basics. We didn't go anywhere she men as she was always worse when she knew where we were going. She had no off lead walks for about two weeks whilst we worked really intensively on her pulling. Once she was getting the hang of it we started walking the routes she knew but not going in to the park - so just walking past it. If we were having a good day I would let her go in the lark for off lead time but often it used to take a long time to actually get into to the gate with the stopping and starting. But she did pick it up eventually. You will have days where you just want to pack it all in and just give in to his pulling but honestly, just stick with it and your hard work will be rewarded. If I remember correctly your pup is about 6 months old? So he's reaching adolescence where he wants to assert his independence and do whatever he wants. If you stick at it and work extra hard once he comes out the other side of this phase you should have a lovely dog. [/quote] Love it, great tips, thank you! Yes he's just turned 6 months. Thing that is hardest is not knowing what experiences he had in those 6 months. We know he was with the breeder for first 4 months, he was due to be a working dog but the farm I think he was going to was hit by the flooding and it didn't work out. He was then taken in by previous owner for two months. In both cases we don't really know how much socialisation and experience he has had. Imagine he was probably in kennels at the breeder not meeting many other dogs or getting much training? He got no training from last owner and probably picked up lots of bad habits on lead. His behaviour in the house with us is pretty much perfect after we layed down rules, boundaries etc from the off and he knows where and what he can do. Would it be worthwhile trying to contact the breeder and finding out what he was up to in those 4 months? We have the KC documents and my Dad actually knows the farmer and his wife through his line of work so could make contact fairly easily. We could ask the previous owner as well, but pretty sure he only walked him round the little park next to his house and didn't let him off lead around there because 'he just makes a bee line for other dogs'. Would any background info help us at all or do we just start every new experience as though it were a first? I mean he freaked out over his first sighting of a traffic cone the other day (now he just walks straight past them) but who knows what else is in store!
Re: Bonkers behaviour when meeting other dogs Hi Simon, We have a rescue Labrador x Pointer called Charlie that we got at 9 months and believe me when I say he was shocking on lead and would crawl on his tummy and pull like a freight train we just couldn't move more than a couple of steps, so I stopped "walking" him and concentrated on heel work in our garden on and off lead for 2 weeks. I then progressed to the gate, if he pulled we did not go through the gate, if I got across the road and he pulled I went home. It was so difficult but eventually I progressed along the road stopping, zig zagging etc. I also bought a front fastening harness which helped me as Charlie is a big lad, but you still have to stop when he pulls etc. but it gave me more control over him. I won't lie to you it took a very, very long time but now he is mostly walked on a flat collar and lead. I wonder if taking Dexter to the race course is over stimulating him, could you maybe concentrate on walking him up and down some quiet streets or round the block for a couple of weeks and slowly introduce him to more stimulating areas and distractions? I worked through Pippa's Total Recall as Charlie had zero recall but using a whistle gave Charlie clear instructions. You can eventually work your way up to calling Dexter away from people, dogs etc. and proof him in new and exciting areas. I think with rescue dogs taking it slowly is the only way and you will get there, I had to learn patience : Keep going Dexter is worth it
Re: Bonkers behaviour when meeting other dogs You were right not to let him off lead while he was going nuts. Good move When a dog is too close to the thing gets them really excited (like the Golden Retriever) they simply cannot think or focus. No training or learning can happen at that point. You need to move to a greater distance from the 'object of excitement' so they can think and start to notice you again. Now that might mean breaking the 'keep the lead slack' rule and actually pulling him to a greater distance away where you can get his attention. That might be 100m away from the object. The ideal is not to get close in the first place but you can't stop exciting things suddenly appearing round the corner. So sometimes you need to remove yourself. In preparation for your next outing I'd work on a 'look at me' cue. Also mark and reward all times when he voluntarily gives you his attention (looks at you). You want to really cement in his mind that paying attention to you is really worth his while, but this needs to be taught in a calm, familiar environment before you take it out on the road. Do it in your house, then your backyard, then the street out the front of your house. Also everything Helen said Dexter is totally normal. He's just an incredibly enthusiastic, friendly and excited young boy. Sorry if you have already said this, but are there opportunities for off-lead play with other dogs? He probably has a nuclear power station's worth of energy to burn.
Re: Bonkers behaviour when meeting other dogs Rachael and Helen, good advice all round To end the day on a good note, I just took him from his sleepy state flopped out on our feet in the lounge for a very brief walk up the street, and he was absolutely fantastic and got heaps of clicks and rewards for perfect walking along side me, I even backtracked, went in circles and got him to sit instantly. Lead was slack 95% of the 5 minutes! He woke up a bit more by the end, got a little surprised by a load of rubbish bags and a bike in the dark but then played it cool. i was very pleased with him and he knew it. Think we'll have to leave the racecourse for awhile. Off lead with other dogs is the big thing we haven't yet tried and have no idea what he'll be like. The half dozen dogs we have had no option but to walk past have resulted in an over zealous Dexter jumping, licking and walking all over the other dog whilst on lead. We are seeing trainer tomorrow who has 4 dogs of his own he uses to socialise dogs with so I hope we can get him involved with them first of all. Thanks again everyone for your kind words and help, it really means a lot knowing you're not alone!
Re: Bonkers behaviour when meeting other dogs [quote author=LabinBath link=topic=5737.msg74736#msg74736 date=1399500584] The half dozen dogs we have had no option but to walk past have resulted in an over zealous Dexter jumping, licking and walking all over the other dog whilst on lead. [/quote] I do not know that I've done the right thing, but Charlie gets NO interactions with other dogs on lead. He can't say hello, he can't approach, and certainly not get close enough to touch another dog. For us, this clear, absolute, rule is just more easily understood than "interact nicely". Off lead (in the past) is a different matter of course.
Re: Bonkers behaviour when meeting other dogs i am having similar problems with my lab she is just coming up to 11months old and we got her when she was 5months old i was very reluctant to get an 8week old pup but now i know how hard it is to correct things that have been wrongly learnt from before but i have found that as she has really good recall now she is calming down a lot but still likes to run up to every dog she sees but she does come away as soon as i walk away and call her good luck and keep on here for asking questions everyone is very friendly
