I thought I'd provide an update on Snowie's bulging disc (L7-S joint). We took him for his first treatment of acupuncture yesterday. Recommended by our regular vet who said she'd seen excellent results. The orthopaedic vet who did the x-rays and MRI said surgery was not required now, and just recommended reduced jolting exercise, no stairs, no ball retrieves, to treat pain with Rimadyl only when needed, and if worsens, to reassess for surgery. This wasn't really satisfactory, I felt I needed to do something! I must say the acupuncture was the best treatment for me! At least I feel we have a plan of action and the acupuncture vet took time to explain a lot about the disease and how it can be treated (the orthopaedic vet didn't really do this). Up till now I have been in a state of anxiety. I've had acupuncture from a physio myself, and then I was lying on a massage table, I could lie back and relax (but incidentally I hated it and will never opt for needles stuck into me again, I hated the sensation). At the vet it was completely different! Instead the vet lost no time, whipped out the needles, bam bam bam down either side of the spine, looked like a porcupine, Snowie didn't flinch (although the vet said he would surely be feeling them stuck into him), and then the vet assistant distracted him with treats and made him lie down and focus on her (she was amazing!) while we got the lecture from the vet. He showed us on the x-rays and MRI where a spur has begun growing between the L7 vertebra and the sacrum, that it is the body's way of trying to bridge the joint and stabilise it, what surgery tries to achieve. He said if you break your arm and put it in a cast, no movement of the bone, the bone grows back and heals within 4-6 weeks. But in Snowie's case, we can't put his spine in a cast, hence no jolting movement. He said we could hope to see improvement in 4-5 months as long as we stick with the controlled exercise. No beach, no soft surfaces, that it causes the body to swivel too much and puts too much strain on the spine. Swimming yes. The acupuncture increases blood circulation to the area and relaxes the muscles around the joint, which he said should increase speed of healing -- we have another appointment in 10 days. (Thank goodness for pet medical aid!) He was not keen on Rimadyl, said by taking away pain in this way, Snowie might overdo it and cause more damage, that the pain is there to prevent him from doing damage. He said to manage pain, we need to manage his exercise -- if he is limping, that is our cue to alter his exercise and what he is allowed to do. This is going to be a real mind switch for me as I so enjoy seeing Snowie's joy from playing on the beach with other dogs -- none of this for at least 4 months. And we are going away for a long weekend to the beach, so this will be a test! He said things to watch for are: If I tuck his back paws under (like dragging his toes) and he doesn't move them back to normal, this is a serious sign of nerve damage. If he drags his feet by himself, serious problem. If he squats to poo, one dropping, then crabs around to finish it, sign of pain (I have seen this). If he holds his tail in an odd way, means he is in pain (Snowie holds his tail high, higher than horizontal, and sometimes I have seen it hanging funny in a curve). I know there are several people on this forum who are anti TCM (traditional Chinese medicine) but I feel for completeness, I need to mention that he also gave us TCM herbs in the form of tablets for treating the back and also drops with arnica (and two other ingredients) for treating inflammation. And two sprays for his lower back, one for night, one for day, for muscular aches, the day spray creates a freezing effect. Not sure how they will penetrate the fur -- as usual I only have questions after the appointment! I mentioned I have started Snowie on Mobiflex (chondroitin, glucosamine) and he said it is a great supplement. I also mentioned that we gave Snowie a Bravecto (for fleas, ticks, mites) and his itchiness is vastly reduced, and he said it's a great product, that diseases spread by ticks and fleas can be worse than the insecticide (I thought he'd prefer au natural, but he is a conventional vet by training). Anyway, I'm hoping for a good result, can't bear the idea that Snowie's condition can only get worse, and he's only four years old. The x-ray showed his L7 vertebra to be smaller, squarer, than the other lumbar vertebra. Vet said this might be a contributing factor, that it might not have developed properly when he was a puppy, or perhaps damaged when he was a puppy. He couldn't tell us how or why this has happened (I was so hoping for definitive answers!). He did mention that a rugby player of 18 years old is in his prime. By 24 he is full of injuries and aches and pains. Same with an exuberant puppy -- overdoing it too young. Probably what happened in Snowie's case even though we did try to be very careful when was a puppy, short walks by the rule -- but such was his personality, fearless, always looking for adventure, if let loose on a walk, he would tear around, leap off heights.
Glad you're feeling like you have a plan. It always helps enormously I think! I've had acupuncture too and I didn't enjoy it...some needles hurt. Still, I went back for another 4 sessions.... Personally I'm into pain relief for animals, I'm not in the 'pain makes them overdo it so we shouldn't relieve the pain' camp. My first Labrador had a very severe spinal (neck) injury. His cervical spine looked like a pretzel on X-ray. Was a miracle he was not paralysed. But he had a long and active life (14 yrs old, titles in obedience and Flyball) and I'm sure that Snowie will too
Thanks Rachael - it is so reassuring to hear that. The vet said only to use Rimadyl if he is in pain, not as a regular pill every day -- I think that is what he meant by making it easy to overdo things. When I mentioned that I gave him Rimadyl last week when I saw him limping after the beach visit, he said that was okay in that case, but now I must realise Snowie can't go to the beach if it makes him limp. Also no back kicking (when marking territory) cos I did notice that after going to a particular beach, before we even got onto the sand, Snowie was busy kicking every inch of grass around the bins where all the dogs wee, and then I noticed his gait was uneven when he came onto the beach. The vet said that I need to have a treat ready and as soon as Snowie has finished making a wee, to call him over with a treat to distract him from kicking cos it probably puts strain on his back -- he is a very exuberant, high kicker, could join the The Rockettes!
I'm with Rachael on the pain relief. If Juno starts limping it is immediate rest and reduced exercise. If she is in a lot of discomfort I will give her a metacam not so that she can exercise but to make her more comfortable which my vet has always been happy with but only to have a tablet for one or two days, rest and reduced activities is fir me the key.
Thanks for the update,Snowie sounds like he is coping mentally very well with all that has been happening,he still sounds happy and 'up' from your descriptions.I've had acupuncture several times,I wasn't bothered about the needles but in my case I don't think I actually felt an improvement....but that's not to say that I'm dissing it at all.The Vet sounds very kind and thorough and I'm glad you came away feeling more clear about some things.....as long as you are being so careful about Snowies's lifestyle and you have medication to relieve pain,accupuncture can't do any harm ,so why not!
I thought the point with NSAID was that they are cumulative, so that just giving one pill every now and then doesnt really help much? For dogs that tolerate them, they are very good. However, long term they are definitely not great for liver and kidneys, and this needs to be weighed against the fact that they really can help dogs have a pain-free time. I'll never forget how happy my old dog was, once we put him on Rimadyl - we thought he was just old and slowing down, but actually he must have been in a lot of pain, and the drugs made him feel like a puppy again. We called them his happy pills... In the long term I think the Rimadyl damaged his liver and probably shortened his life by several months. But it was worth it, to have him happy and pain-free. Just keep in mind that all medication has side effects, and ask your vet to clarify these potentially serious side effects to you.
I am glad that you have a plan now, and that you can actively work together with Snowy regaining his strength and health back! Euan is on Carprodyl daily, but he is 10 years old... I have to keep an eye on him for having stomachache or vommiting. Until now he is doing ok, not having problems with his stomach. My sister told me to give him some New Zealand green lipped mussels. Even her husband with arthritis takes it and works perfectly. My husband thinks it is nonsense, but he is a gastroenterologist who works in hospital and doesn't believe in alternative therapies....but perhaps you can try it on Snowy. My brother in law has no more pain and can use his hands again!
@Karen, what you wrote about NSAID is correct and that is what we are doing now with our Euan. We keep him happy and as painfree as possible. It sometimes takes more than just NSAID, as we speak now he is on opiates too since yesterday. As long as he is without pain. With the pills he is a happy dog, likes to go out for a walk. Without painkillers he can't come out of his crate.
I think when we start talking about NSAIDs and frequency of taking them we have to be careful as what is applicable to one dog is not for another. Juno is not yet 2 years old so our vet has not wanted her on long courses of metacam etc due to the other health risks which may not be so applicable to a 10 or 12 year old dog. Juno had a lot of NSAIDs in her first year due to limps, spay and elbow surgery so for me 1 or 2 as pain relief to make her more comfortable occasionally is the preferred choice.
Thank you everyone for your comments - I just love this forum! Regarding my vet's advice against giving Rimadyl, I am pretty sure he meant not to give it as a prophylactic as it will allow him to overdo things to the point of causing permanent nerve damage (paralysis, incontinence, unable to squat to defecate -- all very worrying!). We are hoping that, by preventing too much movement in the L7-S joint area, in about 4 months his vertebrae will have knitted together to stabilise the joint and that the body will lay down scar tissue on/around the bulging disc to prevent it from bulging more and pressing on the nerves. Limping is a sign that the nerves are being pressed on, possibly by the bulging disc. The bony growth can also press on the nerves, and then surgery is required to widen the opening for the nerves. He can have Rimadyl if he is in pain, and last night my husband was sure he could see Snowie limping after rising after sleep. I wasn't convinced I could see him limping, it just looked like his usual staggering when he's half asleep and gets up cos he heard us moving up to bed (maybe that is not normal?!). So I got my husband to take a treat and walk Snowie around, which Snowie excitedly did (it was butter, his all-time favourite treat!) and he trotted along perkily and we could not detect a proper limp, but we gave him half a Rimadyl in any case because we were both so worried he was in pain. Later we said that next time we think we are seeing him limping, to wait half an hour to make sure, otherwise we are dosing him unnecessarily with Rimadyl. One thing we must continue with is exercise. The vet said a concern is loss of muscle mass in the hindquarter area which will further destabilise the area. So he needs the exercise, but to be cautious of the type of exercise, must not allow his body to twist too much. @Anne123 I am so happy Euan is doing so much better. I often think of him and your distress when you wrote that post of about him. I can relate to your anxiety and sadness, I feel like that every time I see Snowie limp in the slightest. We are giving Snowie green lipped mussel extract -- it is an ingredient in the Mobiflex. We have given him Mobiflex since he was a puppy, although in very small doses (about 1/4 tsp, and not always every day), but now we've upped the dose to a heaped teaspoon every day. @Dexter Snowie is such a happy dog regardless! Wherever we go, people always comment "what a happy dog"! The only time I have noticed any "worrying" from him is when he was in our pool and hesitant to come out because our pool didn't have proper steps (terrible design, a fibreglass pool) -- difficult exit and probably hurt his back. So he'd call me with a little bark to help him out. Yesterday we tried another solution to our pool steps and I think we have a winner cos this morning Snowie easily stepped out the pool without needing any assistance.
Another update (in case anyone else is experiencing something similar and would benefit from our experience Snowie had his second appointment (two days ago) with the vet who treated him two weeks ago with acupuncture. The vet said he could see improvement based on his examination with his hands. Last time, when he felt Snowie along his spine, Snowie's tail was wagging madly. When he got to the lumbar area, his tail stopped wagging and the vet said he could feel his muscles stiffen up. This time, his tail didn't stop wagging and his muscles were relaxed throughout -- an indication to the vet that he has reduced pain and probably increased circulation to the area (contracted muscles reduce circulation) which should result in increased healing. Obviously without another x-ray and MRI we can only guess based on how Snowie responds. The vet decided to use laser therapy this time. We all had to wear goggles, Snowie included (he looked hilarious!), to prevent damage to our eyes from the laser. The vet gripped him under his belly and pulled his backside towards him while rubbing the laser stick up and down Snowie's spine. He said you can't keep it in one position otherwise you run the risk of burning. Meanwhile the vet assistant used treats to distract Snowie cos he wanted to rub the goggles off his eyes. The procedure lasted about 10 minutes. I asked about Cartrophen. The vet said we don't have Cartrophen in South Africa, but use an equivalent. He has used it successfully on over 2000 dogs. When I said we'd heard clicking every now and then in Snowie's legs, he said the Cartrophen equivalent would be very helpful for increasing fluid in the joints. But we'd not heard clicking for a week so we have decided to hold off on that treatment. He said the injections are very expensive (forgot to ask the price) but that pet medical aid does cover it. We have a third appointment booked for the end of March. In the mean time to continue as is: no jolting exercise, walking/running on solid surfaces, must exercise to keep up muscle health. Regarding the spray for his back, yes, need to try to get it onto the skin -- not easy with all that fur. Prior to the appointment we'd spent 5 days at a beach house. We did not take a ball and Snowie got used to walking without needing to chase a ball on the beach. In fact he walked at our pace without a leash -- never seen him do this before, breaking the addiction to the ball! The sand was mostly firm and we took long walks on the beach and the dirt roads twice a day (1 hour in the morning, 1.5 hours in the evening) and a short outing at midday usually down to the beach to play with a dog. There were very few steps at this house (unlike ours) and we never saw any stiffness in Snowie nor heard joints clicking. He did have a few mad plays with other dogs and I was worried, but thankfully there were no ill effects. This beach town is obviously good for dog health cos we met a 17-year-old Collie! Deaf mind you, but walking on the beach and into the lagoon. And also a spritely 17-year-old terrier type, running around like a puppy. One thing we did notice while walking on the sand is that Snowie appears to drag his left back foot when walking. Not when trotting fast or running. I took a photo and showed it to the vet. I thought the drag mark was Snowie's pad but the vet thought it was his nails. His nails have grown a lot with the reduced exercise. The vet cut them -- took off WAY more (about 0.5 cm) than I would at a single sitting, very brave! -- and he said to see if this helps. I hope so because foot dragging is a bad sign. He said that when a horse's hoof is shaped with a lip -- like the toe of a running shoe -- their gait changes completely. So cutting dog nails might do the same. Let's hope so! I don't recall hearing Snowie's nails drag on the pavement today -- I have heard what sounds like stumbling before -- so perhaps I was never cutting his nails short enough (too cautious!!). Unfortunately Snowie had a seizure this morning. Just when we thought no more seizures -- the last one was in July last year. Taking him to the vet later to have his blood tested for Potassium Bromide concentration -- this was scheduled in any case to see if the reduced dose is correct or too low. It just might be that he prefers to be on holiday than at home -- I sure do!
Oh no my heart flipped when I read that about the seizure... I have been reading up on this a lot since Poppy had a seizure about a month ago, and it seems that stress situations can bring them on in some dogs. But then, it is very difficult to say what is a stressful situation for a dog...
Glad to hear that Snowie is going well, though it's a bummer about the seizure... Otherwise he does sound more comfortable, which is great. The thing with the horse's hoof.... The vet was referring to the practice of rounding or smoothing off the front edge of the hoof (known as the toe). That changes the point at which the hoof can lift off the ground at the end of a step and it reduces leverage on the front of the foot. (Of course you can only do this on a horse that's not shod with a metal shoe..). No reason why it would not improve a dog's gait in the same way. My dog who I mentioned with the neck injury, Nicolae... He also used to drag his toes slightly but it was only really evident on the beach.
I'm sorry to hear Poppy had a seizure. Was that her first one? How old is she? It is just awful seeing them have a seizure, and for me the worst is that hour after the seizure -- Snowie is not himself, ravenous with hunger and only focused on food and groans for food (although thankfully he still has cognitive function to know he must wait politely for his food and waits for the command to eat), does not want to be touched, walks around aimlessly not finding a comfortable spot, wonky on his feet. Thankfully all is normal after a two- or three-hour sleep. We went to the vet midday and she commented how fit and healthy he is, just remarkable that he has all these health issues!! Who knows, he might be worse if he wasn't so fit and healthy. We did wonder if stress brought on this seizure. We try to think of every possible cause! The last one happened after we'd been away for three weeks without him, so perhaps he'd been stressed then. This time we wondered if the laser treatment around the spinal cord might've had anything to do with it, maybe the stress of that vet appointment? As you can see, we wonder about every little thing: Could it have been that thing? Or that that other thing? etc! It will be interesting seeing the blood test results and seeing if the Potassium Bromide concentration is too low now. Thankfully he is fine today so let's hope he will be seizure free for another 7 months at least!
I always love reading about your dog, Nicolae -- gives us great hope! My husband said perhaps Snowie should take up flyball! Since having his back toe nails made extra short I have not heard Snowie scrape his toe nails on the pavement. But of course that is not to say he doesn't have nerve damage already that contributed to the drag marks we saw on the beach. I asked the vet if this condition could be cured, although I already knew the answer -- was just hoping! He said we can hope for stabilisation of the joint but of course a crazy antic could ruin everything -- although he said a crazy antic for a healthy dog could also hurt the spine, there's oftentimes you just don't know the cause. I do notice that Snowie's back legs tremble when he's squatting and more after exercise, I suppose all contributed to by the inflammation around that vertebra.
I wish I had a copy of Nicolae's x-rays to show you. If you could see them, and know that in spite of it he recovered and lived a long, happy and active life, you'd be super encouraged Here he is on a Flyball run.
Rachael, you have made my day! And made me smile a LOT! What a beautiful photo of Nicolae, love those ears like little wings. Thank you for posting this photo, you have given me great encouragement.
Hoping Snowie has a full recovery. x My Pointer had a disc problem in his neck almost 3 yrs ago now. He'd collided with another dog, flew over the dog's back and landed on his head. He ended up going to Bristol's Langford Veterinary Hospital for an MRI which showed very serious compression of his spinal cord between C2 - C3. The neurologist operated the next day doing ventral slot surgery to remove the damaged disc and he was kept in for 5 days. It was a very long recovery waiting for the bones to fuse but after 3 months he was back off lead and running around like normal and thankfully he's been fine ever since. I also have a friend who's Weimaraner suffered a prolapsed disc in her lower back, she didn't have surgery just treated with rest, painkillers and anti inflammatories, but she made a slow, successful recovery and went on to live to a grand old age.
Yes, it was Poppy's first seizure and we think it was the stress she was feeling due to pulling a claw out and the necessary bandaging of her paw for a week together with the resulting inactivity. It was horrible and very scary. She will be four years old next week. With regard to the stress, both vets I consulted with said we should definitely continue with working her, as that is positive stress for her. I was thinking perhaps it was the response to having been away on holiday and coming back home again for Snowie, but you just never can tell...
