Bully stick as dog reward? (low motivation otherwise)

I have a young pup, Minka, a day shy of 12 weeks. She is a little on the light side, weighing in at about 16-17 lbs. (~7-8 kg) by my best measurement. Vet visit next weekend should be more precise. She is also a light eater. It’s tough to get her to finish a full 3 cups a day. She loses interest in her kibble on a whim it seems but regains it eventually and finishes her quota most days.

As a result, she rarely feels starved and so it’s tough to motivate her with food. She likes Zukes minis a bit more than kibble but can turn her nose at them easily, too.

What I just found out is that no matter what, she absolutely loves bully sticks. I decided to start use it as a clicker training reward, and it has worked wonders. I’m really able to hold her interest now, and it’s even reduced her being distracted by the tiniest things in the yard, which this little pup used to go for after just a couple reps of training.

The way I do it is I click and hold out the stick in my hand, letting her know on the end for about 15-20 seconds. When I take it away there doesn’t seem to be a problem. She seems to realize that if she wants another go at it she has to do something for me first and is eager to get to work.

My main question is if anyone else has tried something like this instead of small individual edible rewards. I’m also concerned if there are any cons I’m not foreseeing to training with the bully stick, like if I’m going down a path that might lead to resource guarding down the road. Right now there is no issue with that whatsoever and am often very handsy, even when she eats and plays with toys.

 

Hi @Henry77 I am not clear from your description on the following:

1. Do you leave the kibble out she doesn't eat in one go as a meal?
2. Have you tried another brand of kibble? If so, identical lack of interest?
3. Are you feeding the amount recommended by the manufacturer?
4. Will she take the kibble if it is used as a reward, with the food treat taken directly from the pile that would have been used for a specific meal? That it is a substitute for a free meal rather than a complement.

Two problems with non-food treat.
1. Hard to get in lots of repetitions in one training session.
2. You need to teach her mine and yours game so that she will give up the stick. When she is 30 kilograms, she may not want to release it.

I don't know what is a bully stick. I have used my imagination that it is some synthetic material that is very dense. A few words of explanation would be helpful.

 

Bully sticks are ermmm....hard, dehydrated bulls penis..best not to use your imagination on that one! )

I agree with @Michael A Brooks I am not sure offering the bully stick, then taking it away is ideal as a reinforcer for the desired behaviour.

Whilst 7-8kg @ 12 weeks isn't anything to worry about, I would rather she is more interested in her meals and finishing quickly. Had you tried other foods? Or is the disinterest just with her kibble.

Labs are notoriously motivated by food.. but there again not all of them. It would be better to find something she is motivated by..have you tried small cubes of cheddar cheese/ham or chicken for example?

 

Our dogs love bully sticks, but I would not want to give one and then take it away. We don't give them very often, because they are quite expensive and don't last long at all.

I would look for some small treats that your dog really liked to use for training. Ours are always starving so we don't have a problem.

 

Hi @Beanwood well I walked straight into that one.

Now I know what a bully stick is I definitely wouldnt use one as a reward. I would be worried about the bacteria growth of using something like that over an extended period of time.

 

Henry77, it is pretty urgent that you sort out the food motivation situation generally. Because whilst you can use bully sticks in certain situations for some things, it is really going to limit you...

A little on the light side compared to what? Do you mean she looks thin? Or that you somehow think most 12 week old labradors should be bigger? Puppies vary hugely in their weight, with show bred labs being often much heavier than working bred labs. In addition, females tend to be lighter than males. But basically you can't determine that a pup is slim by comparing her to other puppies or to what you think a 12 week old lab should look like. You can only determine that she is slim by assessing her body composition - whether you can see her ribs; how pronounced her spine is and so on. Here is a video:



I would bet that your pup is absolutely fine and you have this expectation that she should be bigger and are attempting to feed her up...

On an aside and as an anecdote: We bred a litter 2 years ago and one pup went to a home where he only stayed till 12 weeks because the owners had underestimated what was involved in raising a pup. We took him back again at 12 weeks and were shocked at what he looked like. He was huge. This is a dog which genetically should have been (and was inside) a slim working lab. It turned out that rather than train him to be ok in a crate etc, they had basically continuously fed him greasy raw hide stuff to shut him up and keep him busy. But they also, in their minds, had an 'image' of what a labrador should look like and were feeding him to that 'image' and not to the pup they had in front of them and what his body wanted to look like.

Please forget all the images you have in your mind of labradors - most of which will be obese anyway, because the majority of the breed is. And please recognise the pup you have in front of you which is trying to be what her body needs her to be...

Well, you kinda need to turn that around. Because if she doesn't value her food enough to even want to eat it when it's free, how are you going to use it to train her? How are you going to get to train all the bazillion things we need to train pups? The bully stick and holding that just isn't going to work for all this...

You should not be feeding the amount specified on a packet. It is ALWAYS too generous. Don't ask me why, the cynic in me wants to say that after they have made your puppy obese, they will sell you their special prescription diet food...

A puppy will not starve herself. Full stop. That doesn't happen. If she is not eating all her food she is clearly telling you that she doesn't need the quantity of food you are putting out and that you've decided she 'should' have (based on what? what a packet says a puppy that weight should have??). We don't feed kids the amount recommended on packets... We look at the kid and think about whether they are overweight or underweight or about right... and go from there.

I would strongly recommend you follow this programme to develop your pup's food motivation: http://www.sue-eh.ca/page24/page39/

Never leave food out for a puppy. The second they walk away, it is gone. Anything which is available all the time, is valued less. How would you feel about chocolate if you worked in a chocolate factory and could help yourself all day to it, compared to your one special 'treat' each week...?

Once you've followed that programme for a week or two, then you can start to train with your puppy's meals....

 

Thank you for the responses.

She eats the amount recommended by the vet which is slightly above the manufacturer guideline according to weight.

She seems to like the food but will leave some left over to come back to later. She has been getting through her quota the last few days. She will take kibble as a treat only if hungry. She’s will take Zukes treats a bit more eagerly. She will gnaw on the bully stick no matter what.

So far I’m very pleased with incorporating the bully stick as a reward. I do not use it exclusively but definitely frequently. Gnawing for about 20 seconds is average.

I have seen zero negative effects so far in taking it away for another training rep. I just hope I’m not encouraging it to develop. I let her chew it on her own for a little longer after the training set is done and she did a good job. Still to problem taking away when I choose. We usually run around and have no pressure play time afterward. I’ve also found that since incorporating it she loves following me around and paying closer attention in the apparent hope I might take it out again. Hasn’t gotten out of hand though, I’m actually pleased. I never just give her the stick to chew on for extended periods for the heck of it.

As for her weight she to me shows no signs of obesity and has a well defined truncated waistline, as much as I think can be expected of a pup.

Bacteria growth is interesting. I keep it in a plastic baggie and use it every day. Progress is definitely slow but steady. A stick should last a week or two.

She just is not a voracious eater. Maybe the vet’s recommendation is high but she still gets a lot of exercise.

I’ll be sure to report back if any negative behaviors develop as a result of the constant give and take.

The stick has been especially helpful in reinforcing “drop it” as well as decreasing her inclination to take a stab at my hand it seems, but that might not be related.

 

@Henry77 I take it you're unpersuaded?

 

hmmm...I would really be tempted to drop her food intake. Just by a little. Especially if you are already feeding above the recommended manufacturers guidelines. Can I ask why the vet suggested that you feed her a little more? I would completely understand if she was a skinny pup.

 

I would still buy some tastier treats to use for training, and probably cut back a bit on her regular food. Labs as a group are prone to overeating and overweight. We use Mrs. Hubbard's biscuits for our regular staple treat, but also buy lots of others.

 

I have not used a chew like a bully stick for training, but if you plan to continue to do so I would be sure to incorporate a word or phrase that indicates to the dog that "time is up", so to speak so that she isn't surprised when it's taken away. I've read that resource guarding is more likely develop if the dog is unsure when they will have access to the resource and so cues help.

Additionally, others may disagree, but I think it's important to provide food and other valued resources without expecting lots of training at times. Control Unleashed mentions that some dogs, if always asked to perform for food, will become stressed and desperately throw out tricks/actions when presented with food. We see that in our guy when he's hungry and we're trying to train. If she is super motivated by the bully stick I would watch out for that and consider letting her chew on it in peace sometimes (maybe just asking for a sit/stay or "go to bed" prior to giving). If you do so, I recommend incorporating other cues so that it's clear in this instance she gets to chew as long as she likes.

Finally, consider incorporating some of the above suggestions so that she's motivated by her kibble and you have options for lower/higher value rewards. That way as she gets older and more difficult things are expected of her, you'll have some tools (i.e. a bully stick) to give her an extra motivational push.

 

Yes, I tend to agree with this. My three have their meals in separate areas, and they are not disturbed. Sometimes meals are given in kongs, snuffle mats, or it may just be a lamb rib. I want them each to have a bit of space to enjoy the anticipation and eating without any tension.

 

Thanks again, all.

The reason the vet suggested slightly more food for her weight is that she had roundworm for a bit from mom and that since she is rapidly growing it is better to feed up a little; the vet knows what brand we use. That was the vet's opinion, I didn't push back on that. We feed 3 cups of kibble per day. That's the manufacturer's recommendation for a 20-pound puppy. (https://www.merrickpetcare.com/dogs/recipes/grain-free-real-chicken-sweet-potato-puppy-recipe?id=391)

Minka had her last vet appointment on Sunday at about 12.5 weeks. She weighed in at 17.7 lbs (~8.0 kg). The vet was very pleased with that weight and her proportions. "Filling out nicely" was the phrase.

So I plan to continue with 3 cups until either she reaches 20 lbs. or gobbles up every meal right away and seems wanting for more. I feel she may get there soon at this rate as the change is noticeable since I first posted - amazing. At that point I'll probably increase to 3 plus a quarter to a third cups unless told otherwise by the vet, whom I plan to call again then.

She has definitely been a lot better eating her food and doing so in a single sitting - but not every time, and sometimes a little encouragement (holding the bowl) helps. I have reincorporated the Zukes treats a lot more now. The bully stick is still used but usually for when she does a really good job or starts to get more interested in other things than in eating. I will definitely try to test out some other treats that may be more appetizing, as that's an overdue experiment at this point.

Using a word to mark the removal of the treat and reinitiating a training rep is an interesting idea. I think I tend to say, "Okay, ready?" but probably not close to every time. I likely will want to develop some more consistent cues as I continue to feel everything out.

Thank you all again for all the suggestions and everything you've given me to consider - a lot to think about. And even if I'm not totally persuaded sometimes, please know that everything said so far is coming under careful and ongoing consideration!

 

@Henry77 you don't really seem to be understanding why a lack of food motivation is a critical issue in training a dog. How are you going to recall her away from other dogs? From rabbits? From kids playing?

You need to have something she wants more than any of those other things. If she is this disinterested in food, how are you going to have control over what motivates her? Without control over what motivates her, you will not be in control of the dog.

Please ignore your vet. Having roundworm in the past is no reason to increase the food of a dog. It is not better to 'feed up a little' - you will end up with an overweight dog and if she is already not eating all her food, she is clearly communicating to you that she doesn't need it. Please listen to the dog in front of you and not the back of a food packet. We don't look at food packets for guidelines on what to feed kids, we look at the kids and assess whether they are thin or fat and how hungry they are. You have all that information but are ignoring it.

So you are basically going to feed always more than the dog wants? And when she is eating the amount that YOU have decided she should eat, based on amounts written on packets and off-hand remarks by vets over what the dog is telling you she needs - then you are going to feed even more....? Oh no, you're going to consult the person who told you to feed more in the first place. You are simply going to end up with an obese dog which is unmotivated by food. I've seen so many clients like this, and it's so difficult when the dog - age 3 or 4 yo - then develops a behaviour problem. Suddenly we have a dog, with no understanding of earning reinforcement from a person, and we have an urgent issue to work on, and no way to reinforce the dog for behaviour because the dog doesn't value what we have. Before we can even address the training problem, we need to spend a very long time (weeks) fixing the food motivation issue and getting the dog into a training relationship with the owner.

You will simply end up with a dog which wants all the treats, yet won't eat the food with the vitamins and minerals in it.

I've told you how to achieve a dog which immediately eats the food put down, above. I've told you how to fix the food motivation problem so your training can be much more flexible and wide-ranging than is possible with a bully stick.

But, as my old math teacher at school used to say - you can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

 

Jo,

Thanks for your reply.

I completely understand why food motivation is important and how leaving food out undermines it. But sometimes she just isn't hungry and more interested in a bully stick or a toy. It varies. The lack of interest in food I think has more to do with just not being hungry than not valuing food. When she's hungry, she seems very motivated by her treats.

That's why I find it helpful to have the bully stick as a backup and in high-distraction settings.

Before I didn't repeat what the vet said entirely accurately. After the roundworm she just said that it is important to make sure she's getting enough food. This was after our talk about daily quantity, so not so much about how much but making sure she's getting it all. That was a few weeks ago, though, anyway.

I am not so keen on ignoring my vet based on your recommendation, but I appreciate your points and will certainly be asking the vet more questions based on it. She's about 18 lbs. now and so I will feed her as a 20 lb. dog and make a final decision once she gets there after talking again to the vet. Right now it's very close to the manufacturer recommendation and I may keep it at 3 cups even after 20 lbs. I do agree that her body seems to be telling me that a bit less food than the recommendation might be more appropriate moving forward.

No, I said if she starts gobbling up the 3 cups and seems wanting for more I'd consider increasing.

The vet's comments were not off-hand. We went over the brand, ingredients, etc. and she gave me her professional recommendation.

 

Henry, just like there are many human doctors who give out poor advice - so there are many vets who give out poor advice. Someone simply being a doctor or a vet does not necessarily mean that their advice is always 'right' - otherwise EVERY vet and EVERY doctor would say the same thing. And they don't.

There are vets who will tell you that, in feeding kibble, you are feeding your dog something toxic. That too, is said by a vet:


And recent research shows that almost all dog foods containing grains also contain unhealthy levels of pesticides like glyphosate - despite being recommended by your vet:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0269749118319067?via=ihub

Life would be very easy if there were just One Expert who knows everything you need to do 'right' for your dog, but unfortunately that's not the case. All of us have once been new dog owners at some point, and probably many of us started out believing that vets' words were gospel (I know I did). Only through experience with many dogs, and through wide reading and an effort to learn 'the truth' and look behind advice instead of just blindly accepting it, do some people come to realise that things are far more complicated.

Our first vet wanted to vaccinate our dogs for ALL diseases, annually - not even 3 yearly. Our next vet had never heard of puppy vaginitis and put one of our puppies through a very painful vaginal douche to try to flush out bacteria - all completely pointlessly, because if he knew enough, he would have known that this goes away by itself at the first heat cycle. And so on, I could regale you forever with the activities of multiple vets - at multiple practices, since we have moved. Personally, I will never just trust someone or their advice because they are a vet - I will now check, double-check, consult other resources, do my own research, ask experienced breeders and other dog folks - and look at all opinions on a subject. You may not learn to do that, until you experience some of the things many of us have.

Vets - and their recommendations - are also not impartial and unbiassed, since many of them receive commission on the foods they sell at their practices....

I'm sorry, I just don't understand this sentence and how the two parts of it connect, or what the meaning is.

If you completely understand how leaving food out undermines food motivation, and that your dog often 'isn't hungry', why continue leaving out more than she is eating? You say you understand food motivation - but I don't think you really do, or you wouldn't say things like this...

Changing food motivation takes more than just something you can achieve in a few hours. It will take days (at best) or sometimes weeks for it to sink in with a dog that food isn't always available and therefore is desirable. So if you want her to be hungry (and therefore trainable) at all times, you need to stop leaving the food out - and to do this over a prolonged time.

This is exactly the same thing, food motivation means a dog that isn't hungry. Why is a dog not hungry? Because she's being fed more than enough food and is leaving it and not eating it all at once...!

We value things we want. We are motivated by things we want. If we are not hungry, we don't want something. It is all the same.

Did you know that pet food manufacturers routinely overstate the amount of food needed, by dogs? They do. Every single packet over-states this. Do you think kids should be fed the amount specified on a packet? I can guarantee that every dog has their own unique individual metabolism. Some dogs fed a specific amount will be obese. Others fed the exact amount, being the same breed and weight, will be underweight. The same goes for people. We are learning more every day about why this is, and the current cutting edge explanation is that it's to do with the microbiome and the types of bacteria populating it (at least - human research is indicating that). But it is an undisputed fact that metabolisms differ and feeding the amount specified on the packet regardless of what your dog looks like and regardless of their behaviour towards the food and apparent lack of hunger, is really a poor idea.

If you fed my dogs as much as they wanted, they would soon be obese....

 

Pups do need more food per lb of body weight than a full grown dog, but 3 cups/day for a pup that is under 20# seems like a lot. My older 65# Lab Tilly, gets about 2 cups/day and and our 3 yr old very active 75# Lab, Cooper gets about 2-1/2 cups/day.

Some dogs can be free feeders, but not most Labs. I had a Malamute that was a free feeder, who was not much motivated by food, or at least not by kibble. I wish I had known as much about training 50 years ago, as I do now. I would probably been able to make him more food and treat driven, but it would not have been easy. He was never overweight, but he really did not care much about kibble.

 

Jo:

Since professionally I sue doctors for medical negligence, I can assure you that the average person is far less uncritically accepting of professional medical opinions as I. I will certainly use the advice I find here to ask further questions of the vet but I would be a fool to simply disregard her opinion on that basis alone. My experience tells me to always get a second opinion, which is kind of what I'm doing here, and I am grateful to get your take.

I provided a link to the manufacturer page showing the kibble I am using, and it is grain-free.

Although I am a first-time puppy owner, this is not my first lab. My background in medical malpractice has conditioned me to never take a single medical opinion as gospel.

As far as I know, my vet does not have any financial interest in the kibble I use or in any other dog food products. I chose the kibble after my own research. The vet was somewhat familiar with what I'd chosen, and I came prepared with the label information to fill her in on the rest. She was very specific and engaging in discussing the different aspects of puppy nutrition, both specific to this particular kibble and in general.

I said, "I completely understand why food motivation is important and how leaving food out undermines it. But sometimes she just isn't hungry and more interested in a bully stick or a toy." I know and appreciate the importance of maintaining strong food motivation. I understand how leaving out uneaten food undermines food motivation and more specifically its efficacy, not its "importance."

What's been happening is sometimes she doesn't eat the whole meal at first or won't even touch it at first. However, some tactics of mine have been successful at whetting her appetite. Sometimes if I mix in a little warm water she will go for it. Sometimes a little exercise running around the yard will do the trick. Sometimes hand feeding a small amount at first or using a Kong with some pumpkin puree breaks the seal. I try to do things that make her come back to the meal in a short period of time. If none of that works, I remove the food and not leave it out for hours.

Another curious thing is that sometimes she'll go for treats rather than kibble. Sometimes she won't touch the kibble at first but once I do one of the tricks mentioned above she'll go ahead and lick the bowl clean.

In these early stages I am more concerned that she gets enough food than I am with making the process perfect. But I agree she may be getting plenty of food at this point. That's what I'm feeling out.

I do not doubt that manufacturers overstate the quantity recommendations. That makes perfect sense. However I'm not just going to only go on a general rule of thumb that is not specific to the brand I use or observations of my pup in to overrule my vet's advice following clinical evaluation. I am also reluctant to analogize to a generalized sense of nutrition recommendations for human children.

I would be happy to post pictures of my pup to illustrate her body composition; I can do so later today. I would very much appreciate another set of eyes on that. I'm completely emotionally invested in her, so of course I am biased and think everything about her is either perfect or a potentially catastrophic condition. I'm self-aware enough to admit I see through that lens and objectivity is a real challenge, even if I don't always realize it.

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Ski-Patroller:

Thanks for your post.

Three cups does seem a bit excessive compared to your experience. And you echo exactly what my vet said, that pups need more food for their weight, and also on the flip side that too much feeding can lead to obesity or too rapid growth associated with health issues.

My last lab, Erie, would eat like a machine. But I never had her as a puppy, so this is an issue I've never dealt with. Erie had periods of being overweight and was quite a stocky dog when we got her (she flunked out of guide dog class so was put up for adoption). We cut down on food, which made a slight difference but as she got older and had a couple digits removed due to tumors, it became more difficult. She was never very active, really quite lazy in fact, and I admit I did not exercise her nearly enough, which I intend to change this time around. Judging by her appearance and that of her parents, Minka seems to be more from the field stock than Erie was. Time will tell, I guess. Ideally I would love to have her be able to function as a waterfowl retriever on hunts.

I have no intention to keeping her a free feeder over the long term, and even now it's more like a very modified free-feeder situation. Every day seems to be a little different. Some days she gobbles up almost everything and others there are times she looks at her kibble like its a bowl of rocks until a switch is flipped.

 

Henry, the things you are describing are a recipe for disaster but you don't seem to want to listen to what people are saying about your use of food (not just me, others too), but want to make excuses and rationalise what you are doing.

If you add water or add tastier stuff to the food after she rejects it, she is training you to do this. You are reinforcing her for refusing the food, by making it tastier after she has refused it.

Do you want to hand feed a dog all her life to get her to eat? If not, then don't now. She will eat when she's hungry, and your job is to ensure sufficient hunger before every meal time that she is prepared to eat. This may mean her experiencing quite a bit of hunger for a few days until she learns what it's all about...

I have little more to add to what I've already said.

See you back for more advice when either:

1. You need to train your dog around distractions and she won't listen to you and isn't interested in your food.
OR
2. She only wants to eat your training treats and isn't eating any of her balanced meals with vitamins, minerals and nutrients in them.

Seen it all before, many times. You don't have the dog in a bazillion which is an exception to the rule. You have a dog just like everyone else's dog, following just the same rules of nature, learning theory, motivation and behaviour.

Nothing you are doing or thinking of is anything which many, many other people haven't done and thought of a thousand times over. You can either listen to people who know where all this is headed - because they've seen it a thousand times before - and save yourself some hassle - or you can learn by making all the mistakes all over again... Your choice, but I've said all I can say.