So, tiger has been going to the dog park very regularly and twice a day...I can't help but notice he keeps getting bullied (not attacked) by other dogs. Yesterday i twas by an adult beagle. Funny she didn't dare try to start up with the bigger dogs and even got humped by a big adult poodle. Tiger keeps doing the submissive stance (on his back) or gets up on the bench/under and sits next to someone...oddly doesn't seem to be me. She looked like she was trying to bite tiger's face off and I just moved him to the smaller dog area where there we no dogs. I am growing very tired of this constant bullying. There is also an austrailian cattle dog that likes to bother him and he has started to stand up for himself...she likes to bully puppies- oddly enough the owner TELLS me this and says she doesn't know what shes going to do when tiger gets bigger, shell have to adopt a puppy for her dog...I don't get it? How can I assert myself with these owners? I'm sick of it.
Re: Bullying? Really sorry you are having a difficult time. I've no experience of dog parks, but have had other dogs be a bit OTT with Harley. Usually I get Harley and walk off, but sometimes I stay and it has taught Harley to stand up for herself a bit. Hope you find a solution x
Re: Bullying? This is a tricky one and also quite maddening. Some people! I think I would go somewhere else, at least for a little while.
Re: Bullying? I had this with my boy - he didn't grow out of it, he stayed super gentle and never "stood up for himself" with dogs that played rough. As he got older, he got better at avoiding dogs he didn't want to play with or be around. For a while when he was a pup, I used to tolerate it - I once (to my shame) walked along a beach with an owner whose dog was bullying Charlie and I didn't really know better when she kept saying "they are only playing", "he doesn't mean any harm", "he's just putting the puppy in his place". Thankfully, I pulled myself together enough to say that I didn't think my dog was having a good time and we'd walk back over the dunes, if that was ok. Avoiding is key - just take your puppy away. There isn't anything else to be done, if other owners don't think there is anything wrong with the behaviour they are not going to suddenly make (or indeed be able to make) their dogs act differently. And to be fair, lots of dogs do play a bit rough, and if other dogs are of a similar nature, there may not be a problem. If another dog is being really annoying and out of order, these days I'm confident enough to call it out to the owner. But it took me a long time to be confident enough to do that - I had to observe a lot of interactions before I was confident enough to decide what was normal, and what was not acceptable.
Re: Bullying? i must be very lucky to not have been in a situation of bullying , jasper as been told off by other dogs, he as never been bullied , i just say to the owners it won't do him any harm to be told off if i thought he was in a dangerous situation i would just put him on the lead i do think its the owners rather than the dogs,.....i have never had any problems with dogs or owners, touch wood
Re: Bullying? The dogs decide what is acceptable or not. If your dog is looking intimidated (hiding and rolling on his back) then he is saying that the situation is too much for him, no matter what the other dog is doing, what the other dog's intentions are or what the other owner's opinion is. You are right to want it to stop, Tigersmom. If you don't feel able to tell the other owners to call their dogs back then I would avoid these dogs. It's not a good experience for Tiger and it'll only confirm in his mind that other dogs are not nice (especially if they are too clueless to back off when he rolls over). Do you know any nice dogs he could spend time with?
Re: Bullying? Poor little Tiger - how old is he? I agree it sounds all a bit much for him at present. He does need to spend time with other dogs, but not with ones that don't act properly around puppies. Makes you wonder what some people are thinking, watching their older dog intimidating a pup. My old dog Billy didn't like puppies. He never hurt them, but would give a warning growl, and if that didnt work he would snarl and knock them over if they bothered him too much. I always warned puppy owners of this - most felt it completely acceptable that their pup learned a bit of respect for older dogs. But he never tried to bully puppies (which I wouldn't have allowed anyway) - he really just wanted to be left alone. What's happening at your dog park sounds different to normal "leave me alone, I don't want to play with you" behaviour. Bones, my other dog, was endlessly patient and tolerant of puppies - I sometimes had to step in and protect HIM! :
Re: Bullying? [quote author=Oberon link=topic=5725.msg72974#msg72974 date=1399066599] The dogs decide what is acceptable or not. If your dog is looking intimidated (hiding and rolling on his back) then he is saying that the situation is too much for him, no matter what the other dog is doing, what the other dog's intentions are or what the other owner's opinion is. You are right to want it to stop, Tigersmom. [/quote] Agreed. I have been in the situation several times when my dog was the bully. When Tatze was about 9 months old she thought she was queen of the park (My friend called her Princess Tatze). She is a super confident dog and even as a pup she never once rolled over for another dog - and she needed a good telling off once or twice by other dogs to learn not to hassle them to play when they didn't want it. She bullied my friend's lab Zaba and my niece's Springer, Bryn. She'd back them into a corner and pin them down, not snarling but not playing either! So much so that I kept them apart for a couple of months. But she tried it on occasionally with other dogs too. Of course, I popped her on the lead immediately. Which is exactly what the owners you meet should be doing. She now speaks 'dog' really well and is great with Zaba, Bryn and all other dogs - phew! They play and hoolie around and do 'bitey face' and all normal doggy play - but no more bullying, thank goodness! We are applying to be guide dog puppy walker so I need her to be a very good friend to the pup.
Re: Bullying? Well tiger does get tired of it and has recently learned to stand up for himself...however, two months into going to the dog park and he thinks its normal!! Now he does bare his teeth but he thinks its a game! One lady tried to tell tiger off for it and even so as much grabbed his nose to tell him No. SHe was trying to be 'nice' but I hardly appreciated it. Honestly you expect a lab and beagle to play???
Re: Bullying? It's not ideal if he is learning that the only way he can get dogs to leave him alone is to escalate things. That is not a surprising consequence. Still, a show of teeth is still fairly polite in the scheme of things. I really would try to avoid putting him in situations where he is going to have to deal with pushy dogs or pushy people. He needs your help to feel safe and the best way is for you to keep him away from problem situations. Don't leave it up to the other dogs or their owners - unfortunately they are a bit clueless.... A very good thing is that you know exactly how to recognise those times when Tiger is feeling uncomfortable Being able to recognise that is a very important skill. You will be able to put that to good use in making a call about when to take him away to 'safer ground'.
Re: Bullying? I have to admit I only have experience on the other side of this sort of thing - Penny is a bully Though I try hard to keep her away from dogs I know she'll react to, and to keep her interactions short and sweet, my biggest problem is other owners who just don't care. They can see I'm keeping my dog away from there's, or taking her out of the situation and they do nothing to help the situation, allowing it to exacerbate. Avoidance is the key as others have said - you need to call your dog away from these situations otherwise things will escalate. On the one hand you do want him to learn to stand up for himself, but on the other hand you don't want all his interactions with dogs to end up with him feeling intimidated as he will start to lash out, and this can escalate quickly into aggression towards dogs who are being good with him because he will start to think that ever dog he sees is going to bully him. A behaviourist I used to work with gave me some good advice - for every negative experience a dog has, you have to make sure they have five positive experiences to counter act it. So applying this to your situation - for every time he meets a dog that bullies him, you have to make sure he meets five others who don't.
Re: Bullying? [quote author=Oberon link=topic=5725.msg73410#msg73410 date=1399192553] I really agree with that. [/quote] It does totally make sense. He also said that you need to take into account the personality of the dog and that the 5:1 ratio was just a general guideline. For example if you have a really confident and robust dog you might aim for a 2:1 ratio but if you have a very sensitive dog you might want to aim for 7:1 or even 10:1
Re: Bullying? Do pushy pets come from pushy owners. I would certainly intervene if Molly started bullying another dog. She was tabbed "submissive" at her first puppy romp as she rolled on her side. I thought 'what is wrong with that', she is not a nervous dog. I felt it was perfectly natural for her to be cautious being the new kid on the block. By the third visit she was bombing around the field with the rest of them.
Re: Bullying? People are very willing to label a dog as X or Y. I would ask those people "Have you ever been in a situation in which you felt a bit overwhelmed and stressed?". I can't imagine anyone saying "no". So does that mean that all the people who answer "yes" should be labelled as submissive or fearful? Definitely not. Same with dogs. Edited to fix typo
Re: Bullying? Yes they are. My favorite are the ones that bring in scared puppies into a bigger dog area and confuse your playful bigger puppy's growling and horse play with aggression. One lady brought her 6 month old, same age as tiger that was just pretty much scared and had very little exposure to the outside world. That's what happens when you do not SOCIALIZE your dog. She was sitting on the bench chatting it up with whoever, her dog hid under the bench and tiger was still trying to initiate play. I saw her (is what made me walk that direction) grab him by the harness to separate and she tells me he was growling....Lady, that is HOW they play. Lady, this is a DOG PARK for a reason. I just smiled and said," You know what, I'm just going to take him away.", to which she got really friendly and said "Oh, he just wants to play, dont you!!" ...Yeah right. I am getting tired of his playfulness being mistaken as aggression. He hasn't bitten a dog, he doesn't do anything different than what the other bigger dogs do, they don't bite hard, theres never been a scratch on them but it annoys me to no end with the newcomers who hardly bring in their dogs get all bent out of shape.
Re: Bullying? [quote author=TigersMom link=topic=5725.msg76111#msg76111 date=1399827115] ...Yeah right. I am getting tired of his playfulness being mistaken as aggression. He hasn't bitten a dog, he doesn't do anything different than what the other bigger dogs do, they don't bite hard, theres never been a scratch on them but it annoys me to no end with the newcomers who hardly bring in their dogs get all bent out of shape. [/quote] I got myself in a right tizz a couple of weeks ago over just this....I was questioning Dexters behaviour because I had had a few rolling eyes and passed remarks.I'm low in the confidence stakes due to lack of experience because he's my first dog.ive made such an effort to watch dogs at play ,read books on behaviour and dog body language .....we were having lead issues which is seperate to this post and Dexter is NOT without fault ??? He can be too bouncey,he will start to box given the chance and he's not got nice approach manners...he will lie down initially and creep forward but then barge straight into a dog to play....but he takes a correction without any question and has never retaliated.......he's playful ,boisterous and energetic but he's not aggressive and I am realizing that I actually know better than a lot of the people I meet.....I have to stop their anxiety making me anxious and trust what I've learned on the last year . I hope you find some appropriate playmates for Tiger x
