Why do people think the worst? I had the pick of the litter. I am not going to say why or who as I dont want it all over the internet especially as they have been so helpful and good with me. The puppies were all healthy confident ougoing excellent temperaments. The best litter we have seen. We spent a couple of hours testing the pups to try and decide which one and in the end we chose the most balanced of the tests - carried the ball, liked the rag, ran to you etc. but it could have been any of them. Mum and Dad have excellent breeding otherwise I would not have been interested. On taking at 6 weeks - a couple of posts on this line did make me pause but I found this:- Have a look at this link http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/puppysocialisation1 and in particular:- Derek found that six weeks was the best time to place puppies in private homes; any later critically reduced the time left before the puppies reached twelve weeks; but if puppies were removed from their dam and litter mates before six weeks they missed the opportunity to be properly socialised with their own kind, which resulted in inept interactions with other dogs in later life. The training success rate soared because of this policy... I think there may be times when this is not the case due to the type of breed, the breeder or the home they are going to. I agree that it is probably better in the long run to sell pups at 8 weeks and allow them a little longer assuming the breeder is doing a good job. I cannot understand why people become so dogmatic (no pun intended) and dont open their minds to other possibilities. I thought this was a good forum with good thoughtful advice but now I am not so sure.
In a sample of one ... Tatze came to me at ten weeks and I found her very, very exuberant - but super friendly and well socialised. I think her exuberance could well have been due to having puppy-play for so long. I certainly didn't feel that any window of opportunity had been lost 'tho.
This thread has moved on from talking about your particular case and so the conversation shouldn't be taken personally. I take it more as a discussing on the wheres and whyfores of the optimum age. It is an interesting discussion to have, and to try to understand why different organisations have different policies to what is considered "the norm". There will always be people with different viewpoints; it doesn't mean they're not valid, but circumstances may be different in each situation. That said, and as stated at the beginning of this thread, it is the policy of this forum to not give advice on puppies that are under seven weeks of age. From our rules: g) Requests for information or advice on raising underage puppies Members may not ask for advice on caring for puppies under seven weeks of age. Check this link for more information Underage puppies Im sorry if this, or the preceding conversation offends you.
As long as it is discussed then I dont mind. I just felt people had closed minds but perhaps I over reacted. It is fine that you have a policy. That is correct too. you have to make decisions. In the end we all do the best for our dogs. Sorry
Yes, I think the conversation has moved on from your particular case, Suejoh, and on to 'the ideal age in general' and 'practices of different organisations'. As I mentioned I got my first pup at 10 weeks and, like some others who have done the same, we had no biting or destruction issues (aside from one unlucky toilet paper roll). I'm not saying that people should wait till 10 weeks, just that they do keep learning in the litter and other pups/Mum are far better teachers of some things than us humans.
I think if you ask for advice on a forum, its always going to be mixed. Plus you had posted that you hadnt actually got the puppy yet which I guess gave people a chance to offer the suggestion that it might be better for the puppy to wait an extra 2 weeks. Ive found the advice her invaluable and from very experienced owners - so its up to you whether you want to take their advice or not. I know when we chose our puppy at 4 weeks, we visited him 2 times after that - on visiting at 7 weeks it was the first time he was away from his mum and siblings and he was quite scared - so much so they went and got a litter mate for him - but a week later when we fetched him at 8+4 he was confidently strolling round the room, for me that was the difference of taking a puppy after 8 weeks (but still in the critical socialisation window).
An interesting discussion.....I got both my pups at 8 weeks give or take a day and they've been very different. I mostly put that down to personalities and the difference in being home bred vs kennel bred. One was bred by a family who wanted to keep a pup from their girl, most of the pups went to family and friends. The other was bred by a trialling man who wanted his next competition dog and was based in a kennels. The similarities were both dogs had good bite inhibition, neither slept through for a while, both had had their early training started with recalls for dinner. Obi from kennels took longer to house train and was bold from the outset. He was also VERY noisy!!!! (he is a spaniel though ) I think if there is an established, evidence based reason for taking pups away from mum early such as the guide dog reasoning it can be at least understood but I would imagine they have a detailed and extensive process for their pups and puppy walkers to go through. In general though, for pet dogs and where such a support structure doesn't exist I can't imagine this is a good thing as the mass of evidence tells us otherwise. I know a police dog trainer(previously a police dog handler) and am aware that at various stages dogs wash out of training at which point they're thoroughly assessed before a pet home is even considered. I'll ask him about puppies next time I bump into him.
I also wonder if the puppies aren't destined to be service dogs of some kind and therefore in a "programme" why they couldn't just stay with their mum a week or two longer.....
Sorry again. You are right - it had moved on. And it is interesting about what is best and how it is managed. When we tested the pups my hubby asked the dog handler who is in charge of pups what they look for. He said they must be confident - so in a new place they can have a quick think but should go forward then and investigate. the other really important is that they like to play with toys - in this case usually a rag. Pups should want to keep it and be possessive. This is not for aggression but so that it can be used in training as a reward. We took my pup to the office to get the paperwork. She had never been there. She certainly looked a bit taken aback at first but then someone bent down to her and then she was off - chewing at someones rucksack and the bin in the corner. I think the police were very pleased and also the lady responsible for raising them up to now. Lovely to see what you have produced, both in breeding and raising, behaving as you would want it to. On pups being rehomed if they dont make the grade. My opinion is that it can be because they dont have space or the dog does not quite make the grade. They need to be high drive as well - think working springer compared to show springer so such a dog might be very suitable for a family. On my puppy I am training her as I would an 8 week old pup and I have always bought pups at 8 weeks or later before and they all varied in temperament.
Ive had a similar experience Barbara. I mentioned on twiglets thread about the advice I've been given by a behaviourist who is helping me with S&S. She asked me lots of questions about them as pups and their breeder. They were from a litter of 12, kennelled, mum was allowed to leave when she'd had enough ( the behaviourist said she should have been kept with them but with a fenced off area so she could get away when she wanted) they left the breeder at 7 weeks and they have field trial champions throughout their breeding line. All of this she believes meant they had a very good chance of being nervous from the beginning then of course came the vet issues. When I compare this to my old lab he had almost the same experience although a different breeder. The big difference was at night, when the pups were old enough, mum was allowed back indoors and the same pup always sneaked in with her. We were convinced it was Murphy because he was pretty much house trained. He only had one accident inside can't tell you how many S&S had. He was also 11 weeks when I got him. A big well adjusted pup. He was a big softy and could be nervous but delt with it in a completely different way to S&S. He had a breeding line full of field trial champions as well but wasn't as highly strung as S&S. It was only when the behaviourist told me she ideally would get a pup at about 10 weeks (and would avoid field trial champions in their breeding) that I realised how much of a difference the extra few weeks between murphy and S&S actually made
Back to the question. This is my advice - If you do bring your pup home at 6 weeks, watch him like a hawk. Be sure he's drinking enough. Get some puppy re-hydration fluid for the day he arrives home and the next day to help him get over the journey. Be careful to follow the instructions on the re-hydration fluid as it contains salts, so you don't want to over do it. If he stops drinking or becomes lethargic don't hesitate to go to the vets, they can go downhill very fast. (Pups sleep a lot but when awake they should be lively and alert). Soak his food and feed very small meals on the first day, moving to four meals a day until 12 weeks old. I wouldn't let him in the garden or on grass (not round here anyway) as lungworm is about. Have a toilet area which is slug and snail free until about 8 weeks old. Wash all toys which have been outside and don't leave them outside. Don't be tempted to have lots of visitors or go visiting, keep everything quiet for 3 or 4 days. Put his collar on at meal times only so that he associates it with happy things happening, but take it off again until he's confident with it on. Keep the pup to one room for a few days but start to carry him outside after about 4 days to look at traffic and everything else you can think of. Do this at least once a day until he can have his paws down after vaccinations. Make sure he can meet plenty of different people, children, folk in hats, old folk with sticks, wheelchairs etc. Have him weighed at the vets once a week to be sure he's growing well. Try to find safe dogs you know are vaccinated and up to date to visit so that he can be used to dogs in the crucial stages. Put your camera on 'sports' setting or all photos will be blurred! Oh - and last but not least - enjoy!!
It does that a lot here. Topics tend to evolve pretty quickly. To be honest, I'm amazed no-one has mentioned poo yet. It always ends up back at poo. Oh. Whoops.
