Met a lady I know from walking her dog on the common - last time I saw her up there, she was worried that her labrador was being aggressive to other dogs. The dog hadn't caused any harm, but had "pinned down" several other dogs, much to the alarm of all owners involved. Sounds like the lab is just "off" in terms of acceptable play (dogs are required to play nicely on the common, too much rough stuff doesn't go down well, even though I know for some dogs it's normal - and if all dogs want to play like this, it can be ok). Lady told me she'd been to see a trainer, who followed Cesar Millan's methods, and had told the lady the problems were all her fault because she had let the dog dominate her, and the hierarchy was all wrong between them. To my shame, I didn't say anything - she was so happy to have found a trainer that was going to sort it all out for her. Feel so sorry. Should have said something, really. The owner is a lovely, friendly person, and both me and Charlie thought her dog was just fine - the dog played nicely with us, so just might be an over excitement thing from time to time. But it was a bit difficult, since she was so convinced. Wonder how much money she'll spend...
Re: Cesar Milan I think I shall keep my thoughts on CM to myself Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but mine is along the lines that following these methods can ruin a dog for good , what a shame
Re: Cesar Milan Very sad But it makes great television, and positive training does not. We just have to keep plugging away and spreading the word.
Re: Cesar Milan I'll see her again, perhaps when we've more time to chat. Maybe suggest she comes here for some tips.
Re: Cesar Milan [quote author=kateincornwall link=topic=3765.msg42761#msg42761 date=1387816169] I think I shall keep my thoughts on CM to myself Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but mine is along the lines that following these methods can ruin a dog for good , what a shame [/quote] I agree Kate, he makes my blood boil I have a friend who ownes 4 Staffies and she believes and trains everything Cesar Milan's way :'( Point this lady this way Julie
Re: Cesar Milan All that I have in my head about Cesar is that he does know dogs, he can read animals very well. Ok we know the dominance think has been debunked. I read old training books, modern training books etc and let's face it dominance and being the boss, pack leader was and is everywhere. One of the best books I have ever read on ha HPR training means to make sure you are the boss, but if you ignore that the rest of the book was light years ahead of its time. I think he is in a position now where he cannot move away from the gospel he preaches even although all evidence now points to his methods being wrong. The real problems with his methods are when they fall into the hands of the amateur and real damage occurs to dogs for no reason. Certainly the alpha roll etc is downright animal cruelty
Re: Cesar Milan Absolutely, Milan didn't invent the dominance model, or the alpha roll. He just resurrected what was long dead and should have been left buried. But that doesn't mean that everything he says is rubbish either. Unfortunately, to new owners, the dominance model still seems to be so simple and compelling. At last - a solution - all I have to do is get the dog off the bed and the sofa, eat first, walk through doorways first, win at tug-o-war and my problems will be resolved (sorry for the oversimplification to make a point). I can see why people go for it - they are desparate and just want their dog to be like Lassie (a fair goal and one I wouldn't mind achieving myself ;D). The reality is harder to swallow - they have to learn to communicate with their dog (e.g. via a clicker), improve their timing, practise, practise, practise, think a lot more, go in small steps and play the long game. A lot less palatable and much harder to grasp.
Re: Cesar Milan I am a wimp when it comes to my dog - I know this, I can barely correct my dog for anything, and most people would think me a bit pathetic. For the worst offences, I manage a "no, no" or "ah ah" but still in a wimpy tone of voice (says one gun dog trainer, although the other thought not : ). Luckily, Charlie's behaviour is just general puppy hooligan behaviour, he has never done anything really worrying. And on the up side, perhaps as a result, or maybe I got lucky, I honestly think he has the most beautiful, gentle, nature, without any fear of much at all. I've watched a few of CM's shows. One week he was dealing with a dog who was lunging towards other dogs. I thought he was harsh and made the dog fearful of him, looming over it, intimidating it, and with really, really sharp lead jerks (which I hate, it seem so aggressive). The dog was already fearful in my (admittedly, completely inexperienced) view. I wasn't at all sure making it more so would be a long term solution.
Re: Cesar Milan [quote author=Oberon link=topic=3765.msg42819#msg42819 date=1387835451] win at tug-o-war and my problems will be resolved [/quote] Charlie always wins tuggie frog - always, he has never lost a game. And then he sits nicely, and offers me froggie to pull again - after all, what's the point of tuggie frog with only one person? ;D ;D ;D
Re: Cesar Milan I watched one show Julie where he demonstrated his pack leadership over a very large Husky, jerking him on the lead and kicking the dog in the ribs until it yelped, after a few times doing this the dog attacked him. He was also attacked by a Labrador who had food aggression, again showing he was the pack leader, he took the food bowl away and the dog bit him. Apparently there a quite a few dog owners taking him to court for his cruelty towards their dogs and making the behaviours worse. Well can't say I feel sorry for Mr Milan
Re: Cesar Milan More "traditional" methods still come into play in the gundog side of training. For general obedience, recall and retrieving the clicker and purely positive methods work fine. My own take is that picking the best from various methods and making them work for you and your dog is the key. The less aversive methods you can use the better for the dog and your relationship with your dog. The problem with them is your timing needs to be perfection and in unskilled hands they border on abuse. I would like to see more of the work behind the scenes that Cesar has to do with the dogs rather than the 20 minutes on screen for two to three dogs in one episode. It's only entertainment. The real process, I imagine, is a lot less spectacular and thus makes rubbish TV
Re: Cesar Milan Nope. I have friends who used to alpha roll their bitch for the slightest thing... It looked really stupid. Fortunately their girl is sensible and confident and it didn't mess her up. That was 15 years ago when everyone was getting into treating and feeding your dog 'like the wolves they really are'. My friends have since seen the light. But, as you say, a nervous dog is going to end up a wreck with that kind of treatment.
Re: Cesar Milan [quote author=charlie link=topic=3765.msg42824#msg42824 date=1387835985] I watched one show Julie where he demonstrated his pack leadership over a very large Husky, jerking him on the lead and kicking the dog in the ribs until it yelped, after a few times doing this the dog attacked him. He was also attacked by a Labrador who had food aggression, again showing he was the pack leader, he took the food bowl away and the dog bit him. Apparently there a quite a few dog owners taking him to court for his cruelty towards their dogs and making the behaviours worse. Well can't say I feel sorry for Mr Milan [/quote] The food aggression episode was handled terribly by Cesar when you consider the methods available to resolve this issue. That dog nailed him.
Re: Cesar Milan I think its terribly sad that dogs with issues are used for entertainment and an unknowing public think thiese methods are good and that they work. I've seen episodes where Cesar Milan shows genuine empathy with dogs, such a shame he's trapped by his on screen persona.
Re: Cesar Milan I'm sure he's not really worried Barbara considering the amount of cash he's made out of his on screen persona.
Re: Cesar Milan [quote author=TeamGSP link=topic=3765.msg42825#msg42825 date=1387836085] More "traditional" methods still come into play in the gundog side of training. For general obedience, recall and retrieving the clicker and purely positive methods work fine. [/quote] That's interesting - I'm not far along in my gundog training. What kind of things require a "traditional" approach? [quote author=TeamGSP link=topic=3765.msg42825#msg42825 date=1387836085] The less aversive methods you can use the better for the dog and your relationship with your dog. The problem with them is your timing needs to be perfection and in unskilled hands they border on abuse. [/quote] That's interesting again. Could you say more about how and why you think less aversive methods might be abusive? If that's what you meant.
Re: Cesar Milan [quote author=charlie link=topic=3765.msg42831#msg42831 date=1387836565] I'm sure he's not really worried Barbara considering the amount of cash he's made out of his on screen persona. [/quote] Possibly not but I still think it's shame when someone in such a great position to help dogs as well as possessing good underlying skills wastes that opportunity :-\
Re: Cesar Milan [quote author=bbrown link=topic=3765.msg42828#msg42828 date=1387836411] I think its terribly sad that dogs with issues are used for entertainment and an unknowing public think thiese methods are good and that they work. I've seen episodes where Cesar Milan shows genuine empathy with dogs, such a shame he's trapped by his on screen persona. [/quote] This is what I feel, I think he is a talented dog person indeed but ratings rule
