Charlie and I had our first lesson this morning and here is how it went. We had a talk about Charlie's past and present etc. Annie then put him on a long line in her field where he followed her every move and she was impressed that we had taught him to be a follower (didn't realise we had ). We then went to her Rabbit/Bird pen and walked him round. If he showed even the slightest interest she jabbed him twice on the lead, and said "LEAVE" and walked him away and praised him when he looked worried and said that was the way to proceed as he should leave birds etc. when told. Hope this makes sense We did this exercise for about 20 minutes. Annie advised keeping up the practise of sits on walks where he does nothing and the "leave", jabbing etc. and that we are welcome any time to do work walking around her pens to practise. We discussed the whistle training, she said we could keep it up but she was not sure that it will ultimately work on Charlie due to his previous absconding history and prey drive. Annie said there is light at the end of the tunnel and that he is a lovely biddable boy . Not sure whether to feel positive or not. Should I go back? Helen x
Re: Charlie's first one-to-one gundog lesson Well, I think I'd certainly give it another couple of goes Helen. It doesnt sound quite such a wonderful experience as you thought it might be - but the first time I went to a training session I ended up with a mixture of hysterical giggling and tears... Not sure that you can really tell much from the first time.
Re: Charlie's first one-to-one gundog lesson I think if you're not sure another visit or two to make up your mind is sensible You know Charlie best and you'll choose the right thing for him I'm sure.
Re: Charlie's first one-to-one gundog lesson If it was me I would have liked to see some retrieving exercises to kick start Charlie's retrieving instinct, followed by advise on how to follow on at home. I have seen many dogs similar to Charlie through my involvement with a springer spaniel rescue. All of those dogs had a long history of free hunting and very poor recall. The dogs I fostered before they where re-homed all went through some basic whistle training and retrieving training. That way the new owners had something to engage the dog with when out and about. The people who carried on with the retrieving training had the most success in keeping their dogs' attention and focus on them. Others just let the dogs run free again on walks even though they knew the dogs' history and problems, and very quickly those dogs would revert back to their old habits. What i am trying to say is, that it might never be possible to just take Charlie for a walk in the sense that you take the lead off and he runs around doing his own thing until you call him again. You might have to accept that he will have to have very structured training walks instead. Which means that every time the lead is off you ask him to do something, be it retrieving or quartering, but it has got to be under your control. This can be difficult to get one's head around it at first, I totally understand that, but it is not as scary as it sounds.
Re: Charlie's first one-to-one gundog lesson Yes Heidrun, I think you might be right. I've always felt the way to get through to Charlie would be to harness his instincts and put them to work... Not that I know him of course! And Helen's already done wonders with him. But it might well be that he always will have slightly dodgy recall, and she may need to keep him busy and working, to stop him heading for the hills... but that can be fun, too.
Re: Charlie's first one-to-one gundog lesson She said she needed to back to basics, AGAIN, I said I had his tennis balls she didn't do any retrieving work and Charlie just looked worred throughout the whole 2 hours. Really don't know. Thank you Helen x
Re: Charlie's first one-to-one gundog lesson I don't know what to say really but if Charlie is a lovely biddable boy he should be trainable I would have thought. Certainly working the dog in my experience is very valuable in that it makes the dog focus on you and not everything else that's going on around. On my first session with a trainer, he said the upside was lady was very alert and he'd been watching her "clock" all the birds flying by as we practiced a long sit with her. On the downside I had to really work on breaking her focus on things that didn't concern her like people on the horizon walking past. I've failed to succeed with that completely it has to be said, but when she's working for real she is very interested in me rather than other stuff and pretty much obedient (more work needed from me). I wouldn't give up after one visit, especially after all the hard work you have put in already. Charlie was probably a bit unsettled by the new surroundings as well.
Re: Charlie's first one-to-one gundog lesson I can sense how despondant you feel Helen , and sympathise too . The first time I took Sam for a one to one , there was I thinking I had done loads with him and left realising that I hadnt done the right things at all . Thats not to say that this applies to you, you have worked so hard with Charlie , I admire your staying power and determination , give it at least another go and see how you feel, its just different thats all , chin up
Re: Charlie's first one-to-one gundog lesson I am a little surprised that she actually handled the dog herself rather than instructed you in handling him. :-\ I have been to many different gundog trainers because I believe that they can all teach me something and help me develop my own personal training style but I have never had one of the trainers take the lead of my dog and actually handle it. I am not sure how comfortable I would be with that and I know for a fact that Murffi the cocker would be totally out of his comfort zone if anybody else but me handled him. My other dogs are more robust and wouldn't have a nervous breakdown if anybody else was at the other end of the lead. In fact the Ziggy the clumber and Caddie the springer have been known to work better for my training partner than for me at times.
Re: Charlie's first one-to-one gundog lesson Hi Helen, I imagine your trainer is simply trying to condition an 'aversion' to game birds in Charlie. Bearing in mind that you probably don't want to use him as a gundog, it would be great if he simply ignored birds. Perhaps this has worked for her with other pet dog 'absconders'? I would be interested to see how this translates to birds outside the pen and at a distance from you. Hopefully she will show you how to build up gradually, but in my own experience, curing avid 'chasers' using aversives can take quite a lot of force ( and a good pair of running shoes!) I understand that this lady is very experienced, and I think it is important to keep an open mind. And if she judges Charlie to be a biddable dog it may be that he will respond quite quickly to her methods. It does not sound as though this training will conflict with your recall whistle training (which you have made huge progress with), so if chasing birds is one of your main concerns, then why not go back for another lesson. Do make sure that you are able to replicate any techniques that she uses, and that you are happy with them, otherwise she will simply be training Charlie to respond to her and not to you.. Pippa
Re: Charlie's first one-to-one gundog lesson Thanks everyone for your comments. Heidrun, Annie demonstrated the lead jabbing technique etc. and then asked me to replicate which I found a little difficult but he did respond, it just seems to go against the "kind" methods we use. We do not want Charlie to be fearful of us but she said he will respect us more. With regard to free walks, David has been allowing Charlie off lead for limited times during his walk and he has not absconded and returns when verbally called then put back on lead and then repeated again further along and he is building this up gradually. Pippa, Your right I do not want to use Charlie as a gundog he is our family pet and we want him to ignore anything with a pulse except us!! ;D this is where she wanted to start with him ignoring birds and game. It's the force I am uncomfortable with althought it wasn't excessive. I definitely am going to continue with the total recall whistle training as he is doing well. I was hoping for tips on how to keep him intereacting with me e.g. retrieving and for him not to be so interested in the horizon, but maybe thats a lesson for later. Problem is she is so busy she can't see my until 2nd week in April at least. Going to chat with David and see where we are going to go with this, but it just seems like another world to me. Helen x
Re: Charlie's first one-to-one gundog lesson I`m sorry if I am being outspoken here Helen, but just noted one phrase that concerned me " we do not want Charlie to be fearful but she says he will respect us more " I might be compltely wrong , this might just be my own opinion and not that of others more knowledgeable, but I honestly dont think I would want to go down any fear route and go right against your kind methods which have brought you so far xx
Re: Charlie's first one-to-one gundog lesson Sorry Kate, I meant that he looked so very anxious and worried during the exercise, she said she didn't want him to be fearful of her or us but he must do as we say and he will respect us more. My grammar is awful, I know. Helen x
Re: Charlie's first one-to-one gundog lesson Phew, thats alright then , just hated to think of Charlie being afraid
Re: Charlie's first one-to-one gundog lesson I think you should give a another try at least. But if you and Charlie are still not happy then maybe this one is not for you, that doesn't mean there isn't another trainer out there for you both. I'd guess that Charlie wasn't too sure because it was somewhere different and more importantly you weren't sure either. Sometimes I think Hebe is psychic, I can sit and discuss going out, lovely walks and exciting things and she doesn't move a muscle but sometimes (ok, usually) if we are heading out I don't need to say a word she just knows and the ears prick, the eyes brighten and she's quivering like a reed and I haven't even moved, just thought about it! I really don't know how she picks it up. I'd go with the respect line too, not fearful but more understanding. Dogs are like toddlers, research shows that their comprehension is equivalent to a child somewhere between 18 months and two years, they need careful repetition (which is why the work on Charlie's recall has been successful, all that proofing) but they also need boundaries. You've already created quite a few through the recall work but now you need to extend those to rest of Charlie's world. It can be quite simple, never going though a door or gate until told/ahead of you, waiting for food etc. In the bad old days it was beaten into dogs that the owner was "top dog", now we understand so much more we can create a partnership between person and dog, but where the person is most definitely the senior rather than junior partner, through persuasion and coercion. (Says she, who is typing one handed because the junior partner is lying across my lap and the iPad is wobbling on a canine shoulder, in my defence it's been one of those days and I'm not sure who's getting more comfort from the squidging but it is getting rather warm )
Re: Charlie's first one-to-one gundog lesson [quote author=Moorlands link=topic=1278.msg8213#msg8213 date=1362778416] (Says she, who is typing one handed because the junior partner is lying across my lap and the iPad is wobbling on a canine shoulder, in my defence it's been one of those days and I'm not sure who's getting more comfort from the squidging but it is getting rather warm ) [/quote] What a gorgeous picture that conjures up. Riley's favourite game is bumping the back of the iPad with his nose
Re: Charlie's first one-to-one gundog lesson He's not tried the screen with nose yet then? Hebe has discovered that nosing it can make the pictures move, she finds it annoyingly fascinating.
Re: Charlie's first one-to-one gundog lesson Thank you. I have decided to go a few more times to get a feel for the whole gun dog training and I guess Charlie has to start somewhere. Annie was absolutely lovely and supportive so no worries there. I suppose as his training progresses she will demonstrate how to help keep him intereacting with retrieving which is what I need. Doing the work with him around her bird/rabbit pens seems to be a useful exercise but 25 mins there and 25 back and the work when there is yet another time consuming training regeme along with the paddock and total recall work. A little worried about hours in the day Kerryn, yes you are right and we have taught Charlie to wait at gates, doors, stiles etc. for us to go first, he would wait sit till the cows come home for food, treats etc. If he attempts to go through a door first I tell him "back" and he takes a few steps back and waits, so he is very good at those basis rules now. Pippa when you said curing avid chasers with aversives takes a lot of time and force what do you mean by force? Do you think this pen work is necessary or will I be wasting valuable time. Also as a novice what should I be asking for from Charlie's training? I would appreciate your thoughts. Thanks Helen
Re: Charlie's first one-to-one gundog lesson Riley isn't that fussed about the screen, lizzie however is transfixed!! Good luck with your next session Helen we're looking forward to a 1-2-1 session shortly after Easter too so we can compare notes!
Re: Charlie's first one-to-one gundog lesson Thanks Barbara, good luck with your lesson too, lets compare notes, but I am betting your lesson goes a whole lot better than ours ;D
