Re: Charlie's July/August training Play and arousal management We did a lot about arousal management – key for Charlie and probably the very most important part of the week for me. I’ve already posted a lot about the “states” Charlie can be in – working, passive observer, settle. To go with these the dog needs skills about managing his excitement. First, it’s about the dog being able to do this, it’s a skill the dog needs to learn. There are lots of skills that can be taught by games – deliberate, planned games. Not unplanned frantic games. We looked at the starting point for two games. I say starting point because these two games can be developed to teach a lot of skills and as rewards. Tug and whipit With tug, Charlie is learning to take, give, stop calmly, in the context of an exciting game (which may also used as a reward). This is not a frantic “outlet for excitement” game - that is absolutely not the point. It is not to be used as a redirection for over excitement (as it is sometimes used in flyball for example – not that I would know, that’s what was said). Of course the question of hard mouth came up. I was invited to examine the dummies that belonged to the dogs of the trainer. They were completely unmarked. Not a single teeth mark in them. The trainer thinks chomping is frustration, a result of failing to manage arousal properly. And nothing whatsoever to do with playing tug. The solution to chomping and hard mouth is about managing arousal properly, and tug helps with that. Here he is, not believing his luck in getting to play proper tug. He was very gentle and controlled with the whole thing. Probably because I’ve played an extremely gentle version of this inside and have always been consistent about taking and giving toys, so inadvertently I have done quite a lot on a controlled version of tug. P8080907 by julieandcharlie, on Flickr The other game was whipit. This can be used for lots of things. It’s an exercise in asking your dog to learn the skills to be able to reduce his excitement levels when he wants. So massively exciting, then you can ask for control. Obviously, you build this up gradually. Charlie is just learning the game. P8080798 by julieandcharlie, on Flickr The main purpose for this right now for me is bringing back the retrieve – so Charlie chases, gets excited, catches and then the toy goes “dead”. If he wants to start the game again, he has to give me the toy. Then he can play again. With practice, I can ask for other things before the game starts again. So he will learn to be able to manage his arousal and follow cues to get what he wants when excited. This game can be used for arousal management, stop whistle, sit to flush, as a reward and lots, lots more. We got quite a lot of tuition on handling the whip and toy, and building up cues properly. I need to think very carefully about using this game. It’s not something that you just head out into the garden and start playing. Needs a lot of planning and preparation. Added: Should have said. Killing the whipit toy is allowed - this is where Charlie gets his "killing by shaking to death" fix. This is something Charlie needs to do. He is not going to do it when carrying a dummy, because I am going to train him to do something different in that situation. But here, in whipit, he gets to kill the pink monkey when he catches it. I think it was dead when he eventually stopped... ;D ;D ;D Added #2: Really should have said about tug. You do not pull back on the cord. And you do not shake the dog from side to side. That's terrible for the dog's mouth, neck and back. You hold the cord of the tug toy, and the dog pulls, not you. Then you walk around a bit with it to get the dog moving.
Re: Charlie's July/August training [quote author=Merla link=topic=7009.msg100205#msg100205 date=1407479296] On a tenuously linked theme, we do fun (non-competitive) agility at our obedience club one evening a week in a member's paddock. M loves it, and importantly the atmosphere is really calm- there's only a few of us, very relaxed, lots of space and most of the other dogs are relaxed too. I can let her off the lead to take her round the course and when we're putting the equipment away at the end and there's not that much in the way of nutty behaviour and very little pestering of other dogs. It's one of the few times I've ever seen her 'calm' (ish) with other dogs in the frame. The more I think about the way she is around other dogs, the more I think it's anxiety behaviour not actually wanting to play, rather feeling she needs to, to keep herself safe. Or something. Mmm. [/quote] It's very relevant, not tenuous at all. The trainer said that Charlie's problem is that he doesn't get to do what he wants before I ask for control. This doesn't mean that "he gets to do what he wants" all the time but there is not a balance between play and control in Charlie's life (indeed, there should be no control at all - it's about Charlie choosing to do what I want, but more on that later). I get that, very much. I knew the constant restrictions when he was on rest were causing big problems. But now, it's time for more fun I think - I found that very, very difficult at first. Because I worry about my dog (I didn't want him doing too much) but also because it's the exact opposite of what I've been taught to do in my lessons with other trainers.
Re: Charlie's July/August training Julie thanks for your posts on this I'm finding them hugely interesting and useful. The bit about managing arousal and control in particular in relation to Brods and his hunting wildlife. It dawned on me an embarassingly short while ago that restricting his hunting by sticking him on lead everytime he looked like he was about to go off hunting wouldnt give me a long term solution, he had to learn self control in a hunting situation - ie high state of arousal. Heidrun had suggested using his Boomer ball psychotic obsession to work on this, and while we cant do it too often as he cracks his nose on it and can get a bit lumpy looking, he's had a few sessions with it doing similar things to what you describe with the whippet, he has to choose to calm down before he gets to play with it, plan will be to rehearse stop whistle with it too........I'll keep it up now I've read this....I also tried the Bumble walk with Cuilli...she seemed mildly surprised that I was interested in her sniffage but we both got quite into it...I do think the other folk in the park think I'm slightly insane mind you...
Re: Charlie's July/August training Fascinating. I train with an ex police dog handler, well training is not quite the right word, we have an hour of the dogs having a short free time in the sports field, a bit of retrieving, walk around the town, perhaps sit the dogs on the wall by the river (to give them confidence) a cup of coffee in a hotel and his mantra is that dogs learn to control themselves and we give them the confidence to do that. I think I might go and have a one to one with Helen.
Re: Charlie's July/August training [quote author=debsie link=topic=7009.msg100379#msg100379 date=1407574973] Julie thanks for your posts on this I'm finding them hugely interesting and useful. in relation to Brods and his hunting wildlife. It dawned on me an embarassingly short while ago that restricting his hunting by sticking him on lead everytime he looked like he was about to go off hunting wouldnt give me a long term solution, he had to learn self control in a hunting situation - ie high state of arousal. [/quote] Yes, same as me putting Charlie on a lead when we see another dog - it's "avoidance". You teach nothing. Not that sticking my dog on a lead isn't going to be necessary though! In real life, my dog cannot run up to every other dog he sees while I wait to be able to click for attention. My immediate solution is to walk with one of the other students that is working on the same thing as me - thankfully she lives very close to me. So I have a way to practice in the short term. It's difficult though.
Re: Charlie's July/August training Oh Julie,you are giving me so much to think about..... Now that you've got me thinking ,Dexter has not learned self control.I manage him.I observe him all the time we are out and manage his reactions or I react to the changes in the environment....ie recall him when an on lead dog enters the park.I'm not doing anything to train him to control himself at those times of high arousal,a new dog to meet is very exciting to Dex.I am often heard to say 'good choice' when he returns to me rather than run off and do what he wants ( Er which he still does at times,we aren't perfect by a long shot) but he's not made the choice...he's just conditioned to his whistle ..... [quote author=debsie link=topic=7009.msg100379#msg100379 date=1407574973] ..I also tried the Bumble walk with Cuilli...she seemed mildly surprised that I was interested in her sniffage but we both got quite into it...I do think the other folk in the park think I'm slightly insane mind you... [/quote] Debsie I hope she likes sniffing flowers and pretty things and not cat poo and dogs rear ends ;D
Re: Charlie's July/August training You certainly have a lot of information to absorb Julie . I am in the same camp as you Angela, we manage Charlie except when he's off lead and he chooses to return to us within 5 minutes without a recall which I suppose is self control :-\ We just can't find the magic toy etc. to use as a calm down toy which doesn't help as Charlie is just not interested in anything That's interesting about the off lead dogs, we always put Charlie back on lead when we see dogs off lead so we are avoiding interaction which isn't helping Charlie's socialisation skills Some things to work on. Thanks xx
Re: Charlie's July/August training All I can say is "Wow". You have learned so much. And thanks from me too for sharing all this.
Re: Charlie's July/August training I've only posted information from 40% of the week! I'll give you a break for a bit though (and go do my washing and unpack properly). ;D ;D ;D
Re: Charlie's July/August training [quote author=JulieT link=topic=7009.msg100432#msg100432 date=1407589019] I've only posted information from 40% of the week! I'll give you a break for a bit though (and go do my washing and unpack properly). ;D ;D ;D [/quote] And relax with your OH,glass of wine and some well deserved tummy rubs for the gorgeous Chocolate Drop ...you've both had an incredible week x
Re: Charlie's July/August training Crickey Julie your head must be spinning with all the info mine is just reading and all the things I want to ask. I think perhaps avoidance is a common mistake a lot of us make. :-\ I will wait until you've finished posting everything but how to get the dogs to choose what you want them to do I'd love to know how to do. : Thank you for taking the time to tell us all about it. ;D
Re: Charlie's July/August training On the subject of arousal levels/other dogs: just back from a short break with my sister. I put some photos in the photos topic of Merla and my sister's terrier, Arwen. Hallelujah, for the first time ever she spent enough time with another dog to come out the other side of crazy!! They were cute together by the time we left, snoozing in the same room and playing calmly and nicely. My sister took me over to see one of her friends, who's quite a serious gundog and shooting person. He rents an amazing property on one of the local estates, has 2 kennel blocks (one for boy-dogs and one for girls!) and does lots of competing as well as picking up etc. I was pretty nervous that we'd be seen as the hopeless fumbling amateurs we are!!! However, not too bad. He got his 10 month boy lab out, and we did some basic retrieves, some simple direction stuff along a fence, some stop whistles and some longer marked retrieves in the woods. Merla had a bit of a mad moment to start with, and was told firmly not to bother the other dog, but after that she was much calmer than she's ever been in a big class and in terms of arousal levels was actually operating in a useful zone, alert but not overdosing on adrenaline. It was really pleasing that she was getting the hang of letting the other dog do a retrieve first and not being desperate to run in and steal it, which can often happen in big classes. Not sure where that leaves me, as I've found it nigh on impossible to get 1-to-1 lessons where I am, and certainly nothing I can do in a long term routine fitting in with work, but it was a useful experience in understanding what sends her over-the-edge, and what she can cope with. And overall our host was quite smiley about her and she did everything that was asked of her without further loopy moments- phew! He was a traditional type trainer, but a calm and kind one and I was quite happy working with him. It's definitely a different dynamic with owners and kennelled dogs though. I don't think the kennelling thing will ever be for me - I just like having my dog in all parts of my life too much. Although I know some of our members have a kind of half-and-half arrangement. And his set-up did enable him to have two un-neutered boys and 2 un-neutered girls without life becoming ridiculous when one of the girls was in season (one was when we were there). More thoughts to mull over!
Re: Charlie's July/August training That sounds great, Kath, really great. I think people and their dogs (if they are over friendly like ours) do ever so well to go from training alone to a big group class. I've worked my way up from one other dog, to two other dogs, then four dogs last week...I think I'll have to take the plunge now though and try a larger class (have sort of run out of other options). Merla probably does really well in a big class if she had nothing in between that and being on her own.
Re: Charlie's July/August training Lauren's post about the "this way" cue encouraged me to add this to the thread, as we did a "this way" cue too but built it up to a clicker training exercise. I had previously done this as Lauren describes here: http://www.thelabradorforum.com/index.php?topic=7211.msg100758#msg100758 And it worked fine. On the course last week we did this a slightly different way, first training the cue, then using it as Lauren describes once the cue was understood. I thought it would be useful to add the training of the cue to Lauren’s description (in case anyone wants to try it). We first lured the behaviour of changing direction. 3 big bits of chicken in each hand, throw the chicken first to the left with your right hand across your body, then right and left hand (making sure your shoulders move - the shoulder movement becomes a cue later when your dog just follows you if you change direction). Next, same again but take a couple of steps and throw the chicken further (you need big bits of chicken so the dog can find it in grass). Then once you can ping-pong the dog across and back in front of you with you moving swiftly away, add a 2 pip whistle cue just as the dog picks up the chicken and turns to see you stride away and throw the next treat. Finally, we started clicking for speed as the dog turned and picked up speed, and the thrown chicken was the reward and lined the dog up for the next repetition. Worked fantastically well. The same thing can be used to speed up recall but you ask for a finish at the end. The difference is your movement (this way is a continuation cue) or you being still and drawing the dog in to you (the recall is an end with the dog with you). This exercise was done after we had tuition on: Preparing our treats and clickers to train Getting the dog's attention with C&T for contact (later putting that on a "let's work" cue) Delivering treats to set the dog up for the next repetition Clicking accurately Ending a clicker exercise ("finish" then "settle" cue)
Re: Charlie's July/August training Oh, I have to get on one of those courses! Love the hunting-up spaniel style with chicken! [quote author=JulieT link=topic=7009.msg100764#msg100764 date=1407692181] Merla probably does really well in a big class if she had nothing in between that and being on her own. [/quote] Mmm, well sometimes she does really well, and sometimes it all gets to much for her and she loses the plot completely! (Particularly if other dogs are highly strung and/or doing fly-pasts and laps of honour!) I think if I was doing this all over again, I'd be tempted to keep well away from group classes for at least the first year or 18 months, just so I had a chance to tune the dog into me first. But then, it might not make a difference. And with a different dog it would be impossible to tell if it had or not!!
Re: Charlie's July/August training ooh so is this a way to teach quartering? Brods needs to learn this....he hasn't done so great at it in past....or rather I haven't done too great at it in the past, my fault not teaching it properly
Re: Charlie's July/August training I don't know about quartering - it might be more complex than this. But as a change direction cue, it seems to work fine.
Re: Charlie's July/August training I have been using the "lets go" command for 2 years with Charlie, I trained it by walking in the opposite direction calling "lets go" and he follows me, Charlie sees it as the end of whatever has been going on and my change of direction x
