Re: Charlie's July/August training [quote author=Merla link=topic=7009.msg100790#msg100790 date=1407697443] Oh, I have to get on one of those courses! Love the hunting-up spaniel style with chicken! [/quote] I'll PM the details - going back next month (forget where you are but would be amazing if you could join - you might be in a more advanced class than Charlie though). It was terrific fun. The other dogs were lovely, and it was so incredible (for me, anyway, you'll be used to it) to train around other dogs, in a big smelly field, with real stuff going on - rivers, birds, farm animals. Felt quite liberated! ;D ;D ;D And it made it all feel very "real" and useful if you know what I mean.
Re: Charlie's July/August training Some of it sounds like the use of free shaping (albeit in an environment with a lot of distraction). The bit where you and Charlie were walking along with other off lead dogs and he had to choose to come to you with no cue - that's free shaping. It is definitely the best way to get a dog to think. Glad it seems to have effectively translated to your walks at home
Re: Charlie's July/August training [quote author=Oberon link=topic=7009.msg100852#msg100852 date=1407706003] Some of it sounds like the use of free shaping (albeit in an environment with a lot of distraction). The bit where you and Charlie were walking along with other off lead dogs and he had to choose to come to you with no cue - that's free shaping. It is definitely the best way to get a dog to think. Glad it seems to have effectively translated to your walks at home [/quote] Phew. I nearly wrote that it was shaping, but then I wasn't so sure. But yes, I think it is/was but not in a way that I would have thought to do with other dogs around and in the smelly countryside (although have always tried to reward attention, not constantly, without exception, with a clicker, without taking my attention off my dog for a microsecond, for the entire walk even if I think he must be sick with so much chicken....). Altogether, I think he has had about 6 hours of shaping to not leave me on walks (in about 12 or 15 sessions). So I guess it worked. Tonight, I asked for a sit off lead with 6 other strange dogs around. He did it. (I didn't push it, and told him go free after 30 seconds, but amazing progress, really).
Re: Charlie's July/August training So, two weeks (or so) left to go on this training push (before I start the next one, anyway) so time for a stock take after 3.5 weeks or so. Other dogs - generally We are much, much better around other dogs. Very rarely will I have any trouble if he is on lead, even if other dogs are off lead. Of course it's still a challenge if an off lead dog rushes up right up to him and he is on lead. But I guess that's difficult for most (pet) dogs. Off lead, I can mostly keep his attention. Although if he is with a dog that is even keener to play than he is (eg the GSP puppy we've been training with) it's very difficult for him. Even then though, I can see him trying to look at me, and head towards me, but the other dog sort of "knocks him off". I have another session with the puppy tomorrow. Other dogs - doing stuff - playing, retrieving This is definitely still our big challenge and we've just made some baby steps progress here (eg on the clicker course I did get a few reasonable passive observes but not many and that was a very well controlled environment). I think I need to do again what I've done with the other dog thing, but with other dogs playing with balls. I need to find a way to start very quietly, and gradually work up to other dogs being active with balls around him, then other dogs retrieving. So I'll have to work hard on finding "set ups". But I'm in a better place with my "working" "not your turn" and "settle" understanding from the course - and I can work on those 3 separately. Arousal and control - generally I have a range of new tools from the clicker course to help with this, and am focused on the whipit game for the next couple of weeks at least (in addition to being more structured about other dogs with balls as above). Retrieving This wasn't in my plan, as I thought we had made some good progress - success was fleeting unfortunately - the training with the switch retrieve I was doing didn't even stand up to using a different dummy. And on the clicker course I did see that all my efforts have resulted in pretty much nothing in terms of Charlie bringing back the dummy. He will do a very good "clicker retrieve" and retrieve in a corridor. The trainer thinks he can now bring back the dummy in these two "bubbles" - and the behaviour is not generalised at all. There is no point in doing more work in corridors, that isn't helping - it just makes us good at retrieving in corridors. I can try to do the clicker retrieve in more and more environments, but there is still the worry that this will just result in the same as the corridor. Need to think about that. I could just keep going with the "switch retrieve" - rewarding bringing back the dummy with another dummy, which the trainer recommends I persist with. Plus try to take on board the feedback that there is something about my body language when Charlie is retrieving that might be contributing to him staying away with the dummy. The more excited he is, the worse his behaviour, including things like shaking and chomping the dummy (which do not happen in his clicker retrieve). So my arousal management is key to retrieving too, I think. I don't know where to go with all of this, will have to pick a path and try it for a while, I think. Or try everything! Building foundations The other thing that the clicker course did for me was show me that I need a wider range of foundation behaviours in place. I actually have very, very, few fully finished and proofed cues that I can say are absolutely reliable. So I'm keeping going with the target stick and place boards and refreshing a few other things like "sit on my left hand side". The plan then for the next fortnight Continue with my "shaping" for attention around other dogs Make sure I'm consistent with my cues for "working" "not your turn" and "settle" Set out a plan that is a gradual progression towards calmly watching other dogs retrieve Work on the whipit game Decide on my path for another "bring back the dummy" attempt Build my foundations, concentrating on target stick, place boards, and sit on left hand side (in addition to my usual routines proofing stop, change direction, and recall) And stop my bad habits of saying "ah-ah" and "no-no", and be much more observant about my body language, and the body language of my dog.
Re: Charlie's July/August training Just wanted to say that I think what you and Charlie have achieved is amazing
Re: Charlie's July/August training [quote author=Naya link=topic=7009.msg101627#msg101627 date=1408015674] Just wanted to say that I think what you and Charlie have achieved is amazing [/quote] That's really kind! I reckon on most things we are now where we were before injury, a bit better at some things like walking on a lead and stop whistle. Which is exciting really, as feel we are moving forwards now. Although before injury, we could watch dogs retrieve with only a smallish squeek. Yesterday, we had to stand behind a bush 20m away when Riley fetched a dummy, so that's much, much worse.
Re: Charlie's July/August training That's basically what I did yesterday and I would agree that this would work with Charlie (based on my novice experience ) I think the other thing that probably helped me yesterday is that he doesn't know me and actually I don't care if Charlie brings me back a dummy so my body language was probably different to yours I would also work at a distance from him, throw or place the dummy whilst standing at least a few metres away from him and watch him for the tiniest flinch Send him from there as well, don't ask him to wait while you get back to him. If you ask him to sit by you while you throw a dummy it's asking too much of his control. On bringing back again try not to be too exact, he doesn't need to sit. The extra faff could make it all a bit too much for him. All those distances, timings and levels of accuracy will get better and better There were other contributing factors too though.....he was being removed from retrieving himself while Riley got to continue and we were retrieving in water which sends most dogs up several gears if not into hyperspace!! I thought bearing in mind the timescales you've worked with due to age and injury and how exciting he finds it all he was very good. He was certainly able to hold himself before being sent and he did always bring the dummy back. He will get better at both, no doubt about it ;D I thought he was completely fab x
Re: Charlie's July/August training It is great that you've seen him, it's such a help. He is just completely over excited by the whole thing. If I compare Charlie and Riley in this vid: https://www.flickr.com/photos/123706979@N04/14721209600/ Riley's body language is just SO much better than Charlie's. Riley is very alert but self managing, and could have reached that dummy faster than Charlie if you had asked him to do so. In comparison, Charlie is wound up like a spring - so much tension in his body - he must barely be able to think by the time he gets to the dummy. I think this is why he was chomping so much when he doesn't at all on a clicker retrieve. [quote author=bbrown link=topic=7009.msg101639#msg101639 date=1408020164] I would also work at a distance from him, throw or place the dummy whilst standing at least a few metres away from him and watch him for the tiniest flinch [/quote] ok...what do you mean though? Do you mean in terms of steadiness here or something to learn about my body language? I didn't handle the walking away to leave Riley to retrieve at all well. I'll do much better next time. I should have first done a settle to reduce his excitement. Then I should have C&T for focus on me. The n I should have walked in a circle to calm down more. Only then should I have increased the distance. Sigh. It just all went out of my head. Nevermind, I'll do better next time, I hope.
Re: Charlie's July/August training [quote author=JulieT link=topic=7009.msg101643#msg101643 date=1408021879] [quote author=bbrown link=topic=7009.msg101639#msg101639 date=1408020164] I would also work at a distance from him, throw or place the dummy whilst standing at least a few metres away from him and watch him for the tiniest flinch [/quote] ok...what do you mean though? Do you mean in terms of steadiness here or something to learn about my body language? [/quote] Mostly steadiness.....if the process of getting the dummy down and sending him takes too long or is too exciting it just asks too much of his ability to hold himself. It will also allow you to interact with him better as you can hold his focus when you're in front of him more easily than if he's by your side fixated on where you're sending him. I think there's an element of too much formality of retrieve getting in the way of working on the areas you want to improve. I don't think throwing and sending from your side helps your cause and neither does a sit present. I'm not sure if the formality is one of the challenges of taking your clicker retrieve out of the bubble into the wide world where the accuracy of the retrieve process are part and parcel of what you've achieved with the clicker. It would be interesting to hear what other people with really high drive dogs that have been clicker trained think..... Of course clicker retrieve exponents may suggest a completely valid but different route to the same end goal but I think as a retrieve is such a reward for Charlie he would cotton on quick to the only way of getting a retrieve is to a) be steady and b) give you the dummy back he's smart and motivated and so are you
Re: Charlie's July/August training Brilliant video of Charlie and Riley. ;D Now I'm going to disagree with you Julie and hope Barbara is not offended. ??? Obviously you know Charlie's body language but to me as an observer both dogs look alert and ready to do the job asked. On the video there doesn't appear to be as much difference in body language as you describe. The other thing you must remember is Riley (forgive me if I'm wrong Barbara :-\ ) is three years old. That can make a big difference in calming and self control. How old is Charlie 15 months or so ? Sorry cant remember exactly but I know he isn't two yet. I think what you have achieved Julie is fantastic. You should be very pleased. ;D Now I need to ask a question and if you've explained it elsewhere I'm sorry. Would you mind explaining how you trained getting attention/let's work ?
Re: Charlie's July/August training I agree with you Jen, they look very similar in the video. Charlie was definitely more wound up in general, he has slightly more of a tense crouch but the main difference I would say is that Charlie couldn't hold any longer than you saw there (give or take) whereas Riley would wait much longer. That is, without doubt(in my mind) down to many of the factors you mention - age, amount of retriever training, time out for recuperation. If Charlie was mine I'd be more than pleased
Re: Charlie's July/August training Hmm...maybe. I think I have a fear it's all going to get worse and worse, rather than better, and I'll end up with a whining, uncontrollable mess (or more of one anyway ;D ;D ;D ). He was so terrible when I asked him to walk away, I'm maybe over concentrating on that bit. Anyway, I'll have to have a think about what to do. I'm starting to not enjoy the bring the dummy back training much any more, so I might say I'll give it another month or so of my very best efforts. While I'm quite sure a skilled trainer could sort this out and it's down to my errors, there is no point if it stops being fun (for me, anyway, Charlie loves running round with the dummy ;D ;D ;D ).
Re: Charlie's July/August training [quote author=Jen link=topic=7009.msg101651#msg101651 date=1408024606] Now I need to ask a question and if you've explained it elsewhere I'm sorry. Would you mind explaining how you trained getting attention/let's work ? [/quote] So "let's work/attention on me" is just a few C&T for attention (however you judge that, some people, including me, want eye contact) before you start. One of the students had this on the cue "ready to work" - which had her dog up, alert, focussed on her, and ready to go. It's just the routine of starting an exercise. Follow the same routine, then put the behaviour you get on cue. If that's the one you meant - the other attention exercise is C&T without any other cues (capturing or free shaping) for any attention on you when your dog is doing something else.
Re: Charlie's July/August training Being away from us was, without doubt, the bit he struggled with most but let's put it into context. That was 3(?) minutes out of well over an hour at the pond, plus however long we took for lunch. You've already identified how you'd handle it differently next time. You thought he couldn't wait and wouldn't deliver.....he did both! More than once!!!! On top of.....being good round the ponies, seeing other dogs in the distance, being quiet at lunch, playing nicely.....I could go on but I think I've made my point No doubt it should be enjoyable for both of you though and only you know in your heart if its what you want to do x
Re: Charlie's July/August training Thanks Julie. That's great because it's basically what I've been doing. ;D I cue 'look at me' they make eye contact and sit. They chose to sit I didn't train that bit. They only do that when off lead though. I use 'look at me' on lead if a trigger is coming and they haven't automatically looked at me soon enough for my liking. Then they make eye contact but don't sit. : I will just add to what Barbara has pointed out that what you did the other day was mega exciting for a young lab. I bet you can remember a time not that long ago when Charlie would have been wild with excitement all day. Now he can control himself I've seen proof on the video. ;D
Re: Charlie's July/August training I'll think about giving him a deadline - dummy comes back, or it's heelwork to music, Charlie me lad! ;D ;D ;D
Re: Charlie's July/August training Having had a quick look at some delicate little collies doing it, I'm not so sure...A "clod hopping cart horse" - as my mother would have said (she was from Halifax ;D ;D ;D ) - and "frypan and fire" come to mind... Better push on with the dummy work, at least for now! ;D ;D ;D
Re: Charlie's July/August training I dunno....if you're not enjoying it so much and it's become a source of stress maybe trying a new activity might be worthwhile? With the retrieving I wouldn't care about precision for now. As Barbara suggests, just make your criteria about 'waiting' (doesn't have to be a heel) and 'bringing dummy back to within a metre or so' (forget delivery to hand and don't worry if he spits it out on the ground). You just can't work on too much at once
Re: Charlie's July/August training Hasten to add - I also think you've got a great dog who's doing really well, and I don't mean to be discouraging about the retrieving. I just mean that there's no rule that says you have to persist with it, that's all Might I again suggest tracking...? Lots of hunting, chasing, and 'catching' but nothing to run off with...
