Re: Charlie's July/August training Wow Julie you are doing an amazing job. I didn't realise Charlie was under two. For some reason I thought he was at least three. With all the recovery time you have had he is in an amazing place.i think definately keep the fun in it for you and Charlie. But I also realise sometimes training isn't all fun but nessessary. A bit like Math!
Re: Charlie's July/August training I'm not wedded to keep on with the retrieving if it stops being fun, although we do enjoy it when it goes well (rarely). I am bored with working on the same old problem though. But I could also come across another problem, in another discipline, that is equally as boring to solve. So there is one disadvantage - working on bring back the dummy is now boring, and unless this is solved gundog work isn't going anywhere for us really. The advantages of persisting are it is clearly something Charlie adores, and the the general discipline of gundog work does go to what I need Charlie to do - be sensible around moving objects. Right now, I struggle to sit in a pub garden if kids are kicking balloons. It's also outside training, which is best for Charlie and I also enjoy. I reckon I'll give it a bit longer, see how I feel at the end of September, I think. Tracking would definitely be what we try next if we switch.
Re: Charlie's July/August training Have you done any hunting? It's a good skill and its close quarters. Find some longish grass, enough to almost cover a tennis ball and then encourage Charlie to hunt, wave your hand down near the ground and say find it or hi lost or whatever you want. Then move him around with your hands and voice encouraging him to hunt on. Every now and then drop a ball or a dummy behind you and then encourage him back over it.....big fuss when he finds it, don't rush to take it and hunt him on, taking the dummy as he starts to hunt again. Just a thought as if it works it would keep him engaged and close, giving one thing back to find another. If you use tennis balls to start as he was less excited about them ....... We can do some with the dogs together next time we see you
Re: Charlie's July/August training Yes, he hunts quite well but have never used dummies. We haven't done any for a while though, so I'll give what you suggest a go this morning, as off to Hampton Court again and it's all long grass. He brings tennis balls back, no problem. He gave all his reward tennis balls back on the course. Ran round with the dummy for 15 minutes, eventually brought it back, got a tennis ball throw as a reward, and brought the tennis ball straight back. Everytime. : I'll PM about some more dates....?
Re: Charlie's July/August training If you just drop one dummy in every now and then and don't try and get it back just start hunting on it might help you adapt your body language if that is causing you an issue.... and yes pm me some dates ;D
Re: Charlie's July/August training I might have forgotten the reason, sorry if I have, but if he retrieves the tennis ball and brings that back everytime why don't you just use a tennis ball for retrieves ? Forget about dummies for awhile.
Re: Charlie's July/August training Well because all the gundog training in the class is with dummies, all the tests are with dummies, and all the gundog trainers want to use dummies. Particularly with the training I was doing last week, there is a big difference between working with tennis balls and dummies - dummies means a retrieve, tennis ball means a reward. And so on. So to progress, to get with the programme, we need to work with dummies really. Plus, he should bring back anything I ask him to - a bird in the end I suppose - so because he doesn't it shows a big gap in our training, which is a bit fundamental to the discipline.
Re: Charlie's July/August training I cannot agree with your thinking, a tennis ball is not a reward, though of course it can be! My Labs and many Labs retrieve tennis balls, one of the exercises is to hide tennis balls in long grass and get the dogs to hunt for them, it teaches the dog to stay and hunt in a small designated area. My dog's reward is a tennis ball but he still sees them as a retrieve article. If you want to get onto dummies, about about the tennis ball material dummy which I am sure is sold on Sporting Saint, which will get you to the next step towards a dummy. There are small, round dummies which are ball like, which again can move you toward dummies as they are made in the same material and are meant to be Woodcock or Snipe. I will have a look and see if I can find them on the internet and give you a link. We used them in a very difficult gundog class last week! Edited to add link - http://www.workingdogcompany.co.uk/results.php?category=1 Start with the smaller ones first.
Re: Charlie's July/August training I get that if you are going forward with gundog training and tests it's necessary to use dummies and yes he should bring anything back but you mentioned about stopping retrieving perhaps I misunderstood. My suggestion of using the tennis ball was so Charlie can keep retrieving which he enjoys and you won't get frustrated.
Re: Charlie's July/August training [quote author=Stacia link=topic=7009.msg101817#msg101817 date=1408092113] I cannot agree with your thinking, a tennis ball is not a reward, though of course it can be! [/quote] You are just training a different way, that's all. I've searched high and low for a trainer that suits me, and I really want to get with her methods - and tennis balls are used as a reward.
Re: Charlie's July/August training [quote author=Jen link=topic=7009.msg101818#msg101818 date=1408092199] I get that if you are going forward with gundog training and tests it's necessary to use dummies and yes he should bring anything back but you mentioned about stopping retrieving perhaps I misunderstood. My suggestion of using the tennis ball was so Charlie can keep retrieving which he enjoys and you won't get frustrated. [/quote] Oh no, we won't stop fetch in the park, that's not what I meant. I want to progress through a discipline, do the tests and so on - that will be a big part of the enjoyment for me.
Re: Charlie's July/August training He should, finding the path of objects is part of the challenge in making things harder or more exciting. With Riley I start with exciting and work back til he'll get anything as I need to incentivise him to retrieve when learning something new. Charlie seems like the opposite - too exciting and the exercise goes out of the window in the pure unadulterated joy of running round with a dummy ;D ;D ;D My route looks like this.....(roughly) rabbit skin, dummy that's had wings on it(or been in a bag with game), rugby ball shaped dummy, hexabumper, tennis balls Yours will probably be the reverse and a little trial and error will be needed to work it out. I have a plethora of assorted dummie. In addition to the ones above I have some tennis ball material and little bomb shaped ones. I will bring them all to the next meet and you can borrow some as I don't need them all.
Re: Charlie's July/August training I agree!! Let the dog tell you what the scale of 'can cope' to 'stratospheric excitement' is. Start with 'can cope' and move on from there. A proper dummy is just too exciting at the moment. When you taught Charlie to recall, you didn't start training the exercise in the middle of a seaside fun fair Same principle applies here. In my obedience class my instructor lets me go at my dog's pace. Some dogs can do a 5 minute out of sight stay in a large group with other dogs running in the next ring 10m away. Mine can't, so I just do a tiny bit more than I know he can reliably do. That principle applies here also.
Re: Charlie's July/August training Yes, good point. I wonder why dummies are so exciting? I would have thought bouncy balls were better. Anyways... Today I walked with mad GSP puppy (she is only mad in the way all 6 month puppies are mad - play, play, play, play). It was helpful. I took an old, not very exciting, red canvas dummy and a rubber ball. Partly because it's the least exciting dummy I have but also because I couldn't find my hexbumpers. I must have left them somewhere. My intention had been to do the hunt thing Barbara had suggested. Anyway, Charlie was very excited and it was our turn to walk behind (harder because your dog is looking at the other dog). So rewarded Charlie for walking to heel off lead with the throw of the ball. He promptly lost it in the most disgustingly muddy ditch and I wasn't going to climb in to help him look. Persuaded him to give up looking for the ball, so that left me with just the dummy. I thought well, I'll use it as the reward then - it's not like I've got any steadiness anyway. Impressive results, although feel it's cheating. He would even obey his stop whistle in the middle of a mad hoolie with the puppy. Which gave the puppy's owner a chance too - because I could stop Charlie from playing, she had a chance to get some control. So it all went very well (apart from me completely bribing Charlie by flinging a dummy around - I'm not sure that's productive although I tried to keep it out of sight and use it as a reward, he wouldn't be the same if I didn't have it). He was just mad with excitement though, but could follow cues. After I put the dummy away, he decided he would swim across the big lake to get to the puppy (we had separated and were walking on either side of the lake) even though two angry swans were bearing down on him! Thankfully, he obeyed his recall and swam back to me, or thought better of the swans, one or the other! He got the dummy and sardines for that! After he'd had about 45 throws of the dummy, he started bringing it back... We did a settle by some deer on the way out. We were quite far away, you might be able to make them out though. (After the swans, I wasn't inclined to push my luck...). image by julieandcharlie, on Flickr
Re: Charlie's July/August training Only Charlie could be completely crazy but actually totally under control at the same time xxx
Re: Charlie's July/August training I'm here reading all of this Julie ;D Glad hi chose you over the chances with the swans !
Re: Charlie's July/August training Just reading the Helen Phillips clicker gundog book- I got to the clicker retrieve bit where step 1 involves getting the dog to put the dummy in a basket/bag instead of delivering to hand to avoid issues with possessiveness on the part of the dog. Have you considered or explored that at all? No reason why you couldn't reward delivery to basket with a throw of ball/ red dummy if that has a higher reward value than any food I wouldn't have thought. Although, I'd love to see the look on regular gundog trainer's face if you turned up to a session with a nice little wicker basket!! But joking aside, it did seem like a possible way to break the hoolie deadlock. And it's a lovely party trick too ;D ;D I have a sneaking suspicion my girl would take off with the whole basket if she got the vibe that I valued it, mind ;D ;D I'm finding more and more reasons not to while I type! Ho hum, worth mentioning.
Re: Charlie's July/August training [quote author=Merla link=topic=7009.msg101875#msg101875 date=1408111162] Although, I'd love to see the look on regular gundog trainer's face if you turned up to a session with a nice little wicker basket!! [/quote] ;D ;D ;D
Re: Charlie's July/August training ;D ;D ;D Charlie's clicker retrieve is already finished to Helen's satisfaction, so there's no point to the basket for me on a clicker retrieve. In normal situations, eg when he is not crazy with excitement, If Charlie brings the dummy back, he will normally put it in my hand - he does bring it eventually, he doesn't abandon it somewhere. I know everyone is now saying let him drop it, and I'm fine with that if it will help, but I'm not sure why it will. He sometimes drops it, but Helen said only by accident because his head is too low, so I needs get his head up.
Re: Charlie's July/August training JulieT you have misread me, but probably my mistake I don't write very clearly! I train, in the loosest sense as we walk around a small town and have a coffee and a wee bit of retrieving, with an ex police dog handler (this is not gundog training) and he rewards with a tennis ball. So my young dog Rourke is rewarded with a tennis ball, when he brings the dummy back and holds it nicely and gives when asked, the tennis ball is thrown to the ground as a reward. This has not affected his gundog training and in fact has made searching for well hidden tennis balls even more exciting. If I offer Rourke a titbit or a ball, he will always want the ball and would spit the titbit out. I have been taught to hold the tennis ball in the prayer position which gets the dog to come and sit in front and hold his head up, it is then thrown straight down in front of the dog as a reward.
