Re: Charlie's July/August training My other Lab, now 8 years old was fantastic 'out there' could hunt, would stop on the whistle, knock spots of many dogs, but ruined it all by once he got to me, he would dance away and not give the dummy. He is perfect now EXCEPT when in company!! When he was much younger he was put on a long line, which I didn't hold and returned with dummy every time flawlessly, but when it was taken off he immediately reverted I have a feeling a lot of this dancing away with dummy is something to do with the dog's character
Re: Charlie's July/August training [quote author=Stacia link=topic=7009.msg102631#msg102631 date=1408352433] I have a feeling a lot of this dancing away with dummy is something to do with the dog's character [/quote] I think so too. The trainer on the course last week said Charlie's killing of the dummy was part of him, part of his personality. She said the best way to handle it was to let him know when he could kill things, and when not. Same with running round - if it's a reward, he can run. If it's a retrieve, he can't. Hope I can manage something approaching that anyway!
Re: Charlie's July/August training I hope this is not going to sound harsh but I think you are setting your dog up to fail, Julie, by giving him umpteen retrieves which he carries out in a fashion you don't want until he is tired enough to give you the behaviour that you do want. If one of my dogs did this I would be straight into a retrieving corridor so that I have got control over the environment and can set up a successful retrieve.
Re: Charlie's July/August training Hi Heidrun - not at all, I'm super keen on getting input and feedback, any thoughts hugely welcome. I don't think I'm setting Charlie up to fail in the sense there is a punishment for him getting it wrong, but I do agree that he is rehearsing behaviour that I don't want him to do, for sure. He will retrieve in a corridor. Here he is: https://www.flickr.com/photos/97932779@N08/14365350750/ And in another one... https://www.flickr.com/photos/97932779@N08/14552050715/ And another... https://www.flickr.com/photos/97932779@N08/14365494858/ It doesn't seem to matter how many retrieves I do in corridors, it seems to make no difference to his behaviour outside the corridor. It's like he has just learned to retrieve in a corridor. What do you think? How do people normally move out of corridors and keep the behaviour?
Re: Charlie's July/August training I don't interpret 'setting a dog up to fail' in that manner. It doesn't have to follow that there is any kind of punishment as a consequence. The video clips are perfect. I would take those sort of set ups as a starting point, especially the path in the first vid with the thick cover either side. Put the dummy just off the path into the cover, Charlie will be less inclined to hoolie around in he gorse and brambles but will come out back on to the path in double time. Treat wide open spaces with nice soft grass underfoot as a non training area for now, also beaches are not a good place to practise this. Anywhere with thicker cover and a nice narrow path for him to come out to is best.
Re: Charlie's July/August training Thanks Heidrun, I do appreciate the input, it's really helpful. I hope I haven't given you the impression the poor dog was on his last legs! He was puffed, and looked like he'd had enough of galloping round for the minute, but he's a fit, young dog. He can run for much longer than he did if he had wanted to do so. I do accept the point that it might be no good whatsoever as a training strategy for bringing the dummy back though, and would find it hard to put up an argument against it training him that he runs round with the dummy until he decides he's bored doing that. And he might have fresh enthusiasm to do so every day. But the corridor thing...he has always retrieved in a corridor. He has never failed to do anything but come straight back and must have done 100s of retrieves in corridors now. I do wonder how I move out of the corridor. He was running round last night on the same path in the second two videos - the only difference is that the grass had been cut either side. I can't see that I could get from less of a corridor to open space more gradually. Are there some techniques I'm missing about this? Should I be thinking in terms of thousands of retrieves in a corridor? You mention about putting the dummy off to one side but him returning to the path. Is that the trick? That the dummy goes out of the corridor at the end of it and the corridor gets shorter?
Re: Charlie's July/August training You will have to make the change more gradually, I can't see what other choice you have got. As a positive only trainer you need to manage the environment far more than a more traditional trainer who will have other tools in his/her tool kit to deal with this sort of situation.
Re: Charlie's July/August training If you are getting a perfect retrieve in a corridor (path, brambles etc), I would continue as you are 'imprinting' a behaviour. By doing it outside the corridor at the moment you are rehearsing, 'lets play and muck about with the dummy'. Maybe it isn't clear in Charlie's head, that he sees a corridor as a place to retrieve and wide open spaces to hoolie? Do you wear a dummy bag, or training waistcoat or anything specific to retrieve training? If so, wear it always in the corridors and then when you finally try a more open retrieve, so that dummy bag etc means we are working, not hoolie. Does Charlie know what hold means? If so, open grass, dummy on floor right in front of you, command 'hold' he should pick it up and give it to you, hasn't got the space to hoolie! I would continue with as many varied corridors as I could find, so that Charlie sees it as tremendous fun and before you know it, open land becomes the same. How is he if you send him down a hedge line, so one side enclosed, one side open? Don't do too many and reward with something he loves, food or run free, but make him heel a few yards first, then a sit and then a 'go play'.
Re: Charlie's July/August training hmm...lots to think about - so appreciate the thoughts and input! Really kind of everyone. Can see it's time to have a think.
Re: Charlie's July/August training I've been thinking about your dummy situation Julie. When I was training the stop whistle one of the best pieces of advice I got was off Heidrun. She told me it can take months to train the stop whistle. Thanks to that advice I stopped worrying they were never going to get it. I stopped pushing and getting frustrated. I just kept persevering with the exercises until eventually they got it. I now have two dog who will stop for a whistle something I never believed would happen. ;D The point I'm getting around to is although constantly throwing the dummy in a corridor may not be very interesting/exciting for you the more Charlie is exposed to the dummy in a controlled environment the more the dummy will loose its excitement and the more returning it to you will become the habit/norm. It might take months but if you can build it into your walks it might not be too tedious. :-\
Re: Charlie's July/August training I read the replies you got on Facebook with interest and I'm pleased to see that most people have come up with the same suggestion I gave you, to continue with the corridors but in increasingly more difficult scenarios and to avoid letting the behaviour become even more ingrained by throwing retrieves out in the open field. That's the only way forward, I reckon.
Re: Charlie's July/August training It was a good discussion, I think! I partly did it to see whether we could create a good discussion on that group - it's a bit quiet there isn't it? It's a bit difficult. I don't have a training field - although have been asking round to see whether there is a field I could rent - and can't create my own corridors. I know of just a couple of lanes in Cornwall that I can use but they don't have the option of putting the dummy outside the corridor at all. So it's all fine if I can come up with a magic corridor that can be arranged anywhere to suit, in whatever configuration I need. ;D I was mulling over whether I could create a corridor on Wimbledon Common with electric fence poles and tape....but that is not going to work! : I'm also surprised about the clicker retrieve. All that bl**dy work on the clicker retrieve and very few people feel it's the answer. I'm a bit bemused by that. Whether most dogs would translate the learning more easily than Charlie has, or actually very few people go through the process of generalising it due to the time it would take to do so? So surprised there isn't more written on what you are supposed to do with that once out of the kitchen...
Re: Charlie's July/August training I have taken the clicker retrieve out and about with Murffi and it is not that difficult, but there is always the danger that the dog disengages from the game to do something self rewarding. After all you don't have the same confined no distraction environment. In the kitchen there are few if any things to do for the dog that could sabotage the behaviour you really want and are training for. So, outside you can't simply ignore the behaviour you don't want e.g. running around with the dummy, and wait for a behaviour you can reward. A long line might be of help.
Re: Charlie's July/August training How did you take the clicker retrieve out and about? Did you start again for a touch, or was there an environment where Murffi would repeat the whole sequence?
Re: Charlie's July/August training Failing miserably to find the facebook discussion, Julie ( on Positive Gundogs, I'm assuming). But I am a bit rubbish with FB!! What was the date on your original discussion starter? Yes, it is disappointing if few people think a clicker trained retrieve is the way to go. I'm a complete convert, as previously mentioned. I wonder though, if lots of people still think it would be 'too much bother' rather than just working with the dog's natural tendency to go and pick things up. It does seem, though, that purely working with natural instinct works best for people with kennelled dogs and, as you mentioned, good private training resources and locations, rather than us poor souls who have to do daily battle with stolen socks and remote controls, and walks in very public places!!! In terms of creating artificial corridors in different locations - any mileage in a bunch of picnic windbreaks?
Re: Charlie's July/August training I started with very short pick ups from about a yard or so, not just in my training field but away from there in new places. I would do this next to my parked car with Murffi on a long line. If he did not want to play the game I would put him straight back into the car, no walk no nothing, read my book for half an hour and then try again. It didn't take long for the penny to drop.
Re: Charlie's July/August training [quote author=Merla link=topic=7009.msg103168#msg103168 date=1408518744] Failing miserably to find the facebook discussion, Julie ( on Positive Gundogs, I'm assuming). But I am a bit rubbish with FB!! What was the date on your original discussion starter? [/quote] It's on the clicker gundog group. It was just started yesterday, I think it's still at the top of the page. [quote author=Merla link=topic=7009.msg103168#msg103168 date=1408518744] It does seem, though, that purely working with natural instinct works best for people with kennelled dogs and, as you mentioned, good private training resources and locations, rather than us poor souls who have to do daily battle with stolen socks and remote controls, and walks in very public places!!! [/quote] Sometimes I despair, I really do! From time to time I get the most ridiculously impractical advice (not on the forum, more on FB and in "real" life) and when I point out the impracticality of it, get a shrug that means "oh well, you're stuffed then". ;D ;D ;D
Re: Charlie's July/August training I don't totally agree. Before I moved to a house with a field at the back for dog training I had to go out and find public places to train on. I was always on the look out for such places and was far, far more inventive and flexible in my approach. Since having the field I am more lazy, because it is so convenient. I sometimes think my dogs were better trained when I was constantly scouting for new training venues.
Re: Charlie's July/August training I was wondering...could you use a scurry type design? Using straw bales in a corridor? Probably back to the same issue re: finding a suitable area train I guess...
Re: Charlie's July/August training I also always train in public places. Even our gun dog training classes are held in public fields /woods. Thinking back, I used natural corridors in the woods a lot - a path between trees, for instance was very helpful. Or a track between a fence and the edge of standing crops.
