Re: Charlie's July/August training Ok, at the end of the third day of "clicker gundog" camp. It's a bit difficult to know where to start! So much has happened, and we've done so much. I'm still processing it all, making sense of it, and shattered. As is Charlie. We've trained, or learned things, for 3 x 8 hours now. I think my brain is full. I think I can divide what I've learned so far into: Clicker training techniques My relationship with my dog, and his quality of life Broader cues for behaviour I want And things I think I'll call "myths" - things I thought were real, and truths, but apparently not (I think some of these might be different opinions though rather than right or wrong) I am absolutely wiped out and still got homework. So I'll post on the 4 areas above later (got another 2 days to go so no doubt will add more stuff). My biggest lesson is I know almost nothing about positive reinforcement training. Despite everything I've read and tried to study, I've been missing a huge raft of understanding, I think. I think I'd describe it best as really looking at things from the dog's point of view. But not in just a dry, clinical sense, it's about being really considerate about how you treat your dog, understanding how he feels, and being very "tuned in" to how he is feeling. Even being polite to your dog. I pretty much love it, although it's not without practical challenges! While my dog is free to make a range of choices here, on this training course, he is not on Wimbledon Common! Although one of the other students lives very close to me in London, and we have agreed to walk together when we get back, and so at least us two can train as we've been shown around other dogs, which is amazingly good luck. Anyway, general news: Charlie is more or less recovered from his battery chewing. He was quiet the first day, which was not a terrible thing! We weren't a disgrace and weren't sent home! Phew! I stopped the painkillers, in discussion with OH (and the vet, but he wasn't a huge help, but gave us a bit of guidance about how to make the decision ourselves) on Sunday. We don't like Charlie on strong painkillers for a long time. Apart from the side of his tongue being a bit red, everything is normal now. Sardine dispenser has worked like a dream! But it's not ok to feed from the pouch - which is only for puppies, as it's too much like a puppy taking milk fom mum. I don't know why this matters, I'll ask tomorrow - primula cheese etc is also a no no if fed from a tube. But the dispenser still works, just I squeeze it on my finger. The way we deliver treats is a big deal. Production line at 7am each morning. ;D image by julieandcharlie, on Flickr My heat busting measures have worked like a dream. It has been super hot and sunny here. Parking my car facing South, covering it, opening the windows and rear door, using fans on the crate, with chiller packs that cool the air through the fans (which I freeze over night and keep in the cool box) between noon and 2pm, means the highest temperature recorded in Charlie's crate (I have a greenhouse thermometer on the top of the crate) has been 24 degrees, and the temp has mostly stayed around 21 degrees - cooler than outside the car. Charlie hasn't been panting in his rest times in the car. I take cool water in the cool box, which he prefers over the communal water bucket. image by julieandcharlie, on Flickr I'll write more on the training stuff tomorrow, and take my camcorder. As we are retrieving tomorrow, so working on one dog at a time.
Re: Charlie's July/August training Oh, and green is not mandatory! I carefully looked out a pair of sluge mud coloured trousers and a faded green shirt for my first day, only to find the trainer was cool in red trousers and a flowery top. Cool. And phew, because the one outfit was all I could pull together. Can wear my red trousers and pink shirt tomorrow. ;D ;D ;D
Re: Charlie's July/August training Sounds like you are having a very busy and challenging time away. I'm glad you are getting a lot out of it. Can't wait for the vids. You are very well organised by the looks of it. Is Charlie enjoying himself? Glad he is feeling much better. Keep having fun.
Re: Charlie's July/August training Well that sounds kinda, er, novel. I'll be interested to hear the explanation. Glad that you are able to branch out from green! ;D
Re: Charlie's July/August training Oh my goodness ,your head must be spinning but in a really good way.....makes me despair if you say you are missing a big chuck of positive reinforcement training :-\ ;D I spend a lot of time trying to understand Dexter ,wondering what he's feeling and how he views the world so that perspective of how you are training would really interest me. Great you've made a training pal so close by and that must make you feel more confident that you can take away what you are learning and put it into practice in your most challenging real life situation,that is really good. Glad Charlie's mouth is seeming better and you are right about him not being on such strong meds longer than he needs to .....it only takes a bit of enthusiastic joie de vivre to put strain on his recovering leg. Really interested to hear the explanation of the comment about the sardine dispenser .......especially as I'm all revved up to start using them ;D (Dexter has had a whole tinned sardine 2 days running and no ill effects ;D )and also how the manner in which we deliver treats has an impact..... Your fans adaption are a great invention,Charlie is having very luxurious and relaxing breaks in the car while I bet you are sweating it out on a field learning theory..... Thanks for the update,I know you will have so much going on ,it was great you could pop on and share some news.enjoy your next few days x
Re: Charlie's July/August training [quote author=Oberon link=topic=7009.msg99993#msg99993 date=1407367667] Well that sounds kinda, er, novel. I'll be interested to hear the explanation. Glad that you are able to branch out from green! ;D [/quote] Umm something odd with quotes going on.... I know when I ask, I'm going to be invited to try work it out for myself, and I'll get "ok, good" if I'm on the right track, and a slight eye roll if I say something silly. Must tell the trainer she has a no reward marker! ;D ;D ;D I'll check, but I think the answer will go: Using a pouch for a puppy to encourage them is fine, but for an adult dog the way treats are delivered matters. We don't "post" or "shove" them into a dog's mouth, we offer them on a flat palm, like feeding a horse. Think about what it feels like from the dog's point of view. He has to choose to take the treat, not have it stuffed into him, otherwise I'll end up with a dog who will eat even when he is really too aroused to eat (so losing a key indicator of my dog's state of mind - being so aroused he can't eat is a bad thing). I bet the answer that the treat can't be thrown from a pouch to position my dog for the next exercise is also part of it. And that I can't "prepare my dog to work" by counting out my treats in a little routine (big cue work is starting) before my reps. I bet it isn't that it's inappropriate because it's too much like taking milk from mum, as I said above, but that it has a range of disadvantages which you live with for puppies but don't want for adult dogs. I doubt it matters for most things in everyday use though. I'll still use it, perhaps not for clicker training. It didn't matter much yesterday, I just squeezed 5 blobs into my hand and delivered the blobs. Was still better than managing sardines in a freezer bag.
Re: Charlie's July/August training Wow, sounds amazing. It is interesting, isn't it, that there doesn't seem to be a common agreement on 'right' and 'wrong' in dog training, and how a dog's mind works. When I started out I just wanted to know the 'right' way to do things, but it's not that simple! I have to say that in most books/articles I've read, I've found something that makes me raise my eyebrows slightly (or sometimes, a lot!), and I just put the info in the 'pot' and usually make my own middle way. This is why I find Pippa's stuff so good, as she acknowledges other opinions and presents a variety of options, whereas a lot of trainers seem to just say their way is right. And it's why the forum is so great, as we can all benefit from a huge range of other people's practical experience. Sorry, turned into a bit of a philosophical monologue there : Enjoy the rest of the course, and I'm looking forward to hearing more about it By the way, meant to say- our new top treat is dried sprats! Massively smelly, she'll do anything for them!! Definitely worth a try.
Re: Charlie's July/August training From what you've already said about what you've learnt I think I might as well give up with my clicker there's no way I'm doing it right. :-\ I'm looking forward to when you've got time and you've sorted all the new info in your brain and can tell us all the new stuff you've learnt about Positive training. If you've learnt stuff even you haven't read about I'm in trouble. Hope the rest of the course goes as well.
Re: Charlie's July/August training In my training I am working away from having obvious treats. I don't want my dog to know if I have any or not. That's because in obedience you need to get to the point where you cannot take treats into the ring. The dog needs to work for quite a while without a reward in the ring. Plus, I don't want my dog to work only when he knows I have treats - that's almost the same as getting stuck at the luring stage. So that counting treats thing would not work for me.
Re: Charlie's July/August training Of course, if you always intend to carry treats on you the above (in my post) won't apply. Guess I'm just saying that maybe some of the trainer's methods are optional or not universally applicable. Which is what you are in the process of considering - what will you transfer to your normal training at home and what you won't
Re: Charlie's July/August training Well at least I've been doing something right I've always fed treats from the palm of my hand like feeding a horse. ;D. Shame that's not the important bit. Is all the training your learning mainly shaping so c&t the dog for making the right choice ? I've always found this difficult if not impossible with two dogs which is why I usually lure c&t then add cue and c&t. I'm also very interested in this relationship with your dog and looking at things from a dogs point if view. Gosh Julie I think you might need your own board to write all this up and answer everyone's questions.
Re: Charlie's July/August training [quote author=Jen link=topic=7009.msg100098#msg100098 date=1407411677] Well at least I've been doing something right I've always fed treats from the palm of my hand like feeding a horse. ;D. [/quote] I do this just to avoid getting my fingers pinched ;D Yes, I should train him to take them nicely... Just thinking about the advice to make the rewards really evident prior to a training session... It's no different really to gundog work where the promise of a 'treat' (retrieve) is very obviously on the cards. Probably only the rarefied atmosphere of obedience trialling where you need to wean your dog off 'treats' while 'working'. And that is quite a pain, frankly. Enthusiasm is certainly easier to maintain if potential rewards are in evidence....
Re: Charlie's July/August training Very interesting, but sounds exhausting! I look forward to your thoughts when you get home and have processed it all.
Re: Charlie's July/August training Very interesting discussion about the treat thing - I asked the trainer if she took treats shooting. She said she did, yes (more on that in a moment). But the description I gave was in the context of training foundation behaviours something where you are doing "reps" - it was about creating a specific set of cues that said "now we are training". And it's followed by clicks for attention (if needed). The other side of it is a "park" cue. This is a foot on the middle of a 6ft training lead (no slip leads here) and you disengage from the dog. This says "nothing going on is to do with you". Here you must never feed a dog (unless you are very experienced) because you tell the dog it's back in work mode. These circumstances are exaggerated at this point, i think, and the behaviour you get in these circumstances will eventually be put on cue, I don't think this is a long term thing. There is a third "state" relevant to Charlie - this is as a passive observer. Here, I can feed him for quietly (but alertly) watching, say, another dog retrieve. I will put this on cue too - a "not your turn" cue. I have an ok passive observer now (well, sometimes, we were ok watching dogs retrieve from water today - from a distance!). But I do not have a settle. Charlie does not switch off into a proper park - because I've always given him food for being calm. Going back to always carrying food. The trainer said a range of reinforcers are always present - including the reinforcer just to carry on, or do another activity. I don't think that food has to be the reward in the long term. Having said that, the trainer is annoyed by situations (tests etc) where food is restricted.
Re: Charlie's July/August training Yes, I agree that food rewards should not be totally removed from any situation and I think the rule about not taking food into an obedience trial ring is, to be honest, silly. And, yes, we should think broadly and creatively and with a doggie mind about what is actually a reinforcer. As Karen Pryor says, a cue is actually also a reinforcer as it's the opportunity to get something right and earn a reward. Very interesting stuff. I have a reasonable 'passive observer' state too. Like you, I've always delivered treats for waiting quietly. But (or maybe 'and therefore'...) we have no 'park' cue. I love the 'park' cue and I totally want one!!!!!! ;D
Re: Charlie's July/August training [quote author=Oberon link=topic=7009.msg100164#msg100164 date=1407446702] As Karen Pryor says, a cue is actually also a reinforcer as it's the opportunity to get something right and earn a reward. [/quote] A tertiary reinforcer, apparently. I hadn't heard the term before. I badly want a park cue. There is a Collie training with us that has an amazing park cue - his handler touches his collar in a certain way and he melts into a relaxed puddle on the ground! I'd love that....
Re: Charlie's July/August training [quote author=JulieT link=topic=7009.msg100165#msg100165 date=1407447390] [quote author=Oberon link=topic=7009.msg100164#msg100164 date=1407446702] As Karen Pryor says, a cue is actually also a reinforcer as it's the opportunity to get something right and earn a reward. [/quote] A tertiary reinforcer, apparently[/quote] Ah, great! I hadn't heard that term either. Or maybe I just forgot... My old dog parked naturally. But Obi always has his motor running and headlights on :
Re: Charlie's July/August training Thanks for sharing this with us all Julie, its very good of you and makes interesting reading. [quote author=JulieT link=topic=7009.msg100158#msg100158 date=1407445964] ... The other side of it is a "park" cue. ...[/quote]This is something that we've just started doing in the last couple of weeks when training with Helen Phillips. It seems very useful and its amazing how quickly the dogs pick it up (and doubly amazing for a Duracell bunny loon like Harvey!).
Re: Charlie's July/August training This is really interesting. I think I'm doing multiple things wrong. I would love a training camp for a week. Just to correct everything I do wrong. I think Milly is very responsive and pretty easy to train but my lack of knowledge makes for very bad mistakes lol. So I'm learning heaps keep the discussion rolling ;D
