Re: Charlie's July/August training [quote author=Stacia link=topic=7009.msg100178#msg100178 date=1407448892] My GSP would not look at a food reward once we were working! [/quote] Yes, Charlie sometimes won't look at food either (and he has never worked in his life, and probably won't). According to this trainer this is not inevitable, and is not a good thing. This means the dog is over aroused and is not able to properly handle himself and his emotions in the environment he is in.
Re: Charlie's July/August training I may question that, though I understand what she means. I think a dog working is able to handle him/herself and not over aroused, is in work mode and therefore food is not necessary.
Re: Charlie's July/August training Well, I'm very much repeating what I've learned/heard... I think she would say "nonsense" to be honest. She thinks traditionally trained dogs are working "on the edge" - albeit effectively - but have no arousal self management. It's not a question of whether food is necessary. It's a question of whether, in a highly charged environment, the dog is able to be calm enough to eat or is in such a state it is unable to do so.
Re: Charlie's July/August training If I was concentrating on working hard I don't think I would be interested in eating. A Labrador has to be in a calm state of mind when picking up, otherwise it would not be able to mark and remember where the birds land and would run in. This has nothing to do with traditional training in my opinion Nevertheless I am fascinated by what you have been learning and look forward to reading all about it. I had a friend here for coffee this morning and she has had some 1 to 1 training with Helen Philips. Maybe it would be good for my number 1 Labrador who is very excitable. She is only about 40 minutes away from me!
Re: Charlie's July/August training It's not about labradors, it's about all dogs. Actually, the trainer is really an HPR person. I see it as a dog being able to be cool, calm and effective with its emotions under control, and is able to eat - we're not talking about sitting down to a 3 course meal here in the middle of a sales pitch ;D. We're talking about a dog who is going about his job, and still able to take a sliver of steak if offered. Not one quivering away, wired up to the sky, stressed out. Well, that's how I understand the point anyway (keen not to over state this as a position I have any real experience to defend ).
Re: Charlie's July/August training Regardless of what a lack of interest in food might mean, it is definitely essential that a dog is in an attentive but self-controlled state for training and working.
Re: Charlie's July/August training I thought I should give an account of today, and try to return to the earlier points tomorrow (as "later" seems to get later and later). Charlie was excited to be retrieving to say the least. We moved out of the corridor because the problem is that Charlie can retrieve in a corridor, but not outside one. When I say "can't retrieve" I mean - of course - bring the dratted dummy back. I always mean bring the dratted dummy back. Story of my life with Charlie and gundog training. So, 4th gundog trainer has a look at Charlie's talent for hanging on to a dummy... Boy, he ran round that field with it. Impressively so, even for Charlie. He is fit now, really fit. That means he can run fast, 100m circles around me with a dummy for a loooong time. :-[ His reward for eventually bringing the dummy back was a throw of a tennis ball. Which he returned right away. :-\ We got two dummies out - as soon as the first was dropped within a metre of me he got the second dummy thrown. No waiting around, no steadiness, he drops the dummy and gets another one thrown. I tried.... The trainer tried in the end....she had to work hard. Whizzing the second dummy around, pretending to throw it, playing with Charlie...he was pretty reluctant to give up his dummy. Bird in the hand and all that. In the end, she managed about 3 or 4 drops of the dummy about 5m away, in return for running in for another identical dummy. I think Charlie was trying to work out how he could play so he got two dummies in his mouth at the same time. Charlie back in the car and it was the turn of a very pretty Vizsla. She did some very competent retrieves indeed. Then the dummy was placed between the dog and the handler and the "fetch" cue given. The dog ignored the dummy! She had learned "a pattern" and not what the fetch cue really meant. So back to base to see what our dogs really understood by "fetch". Charlie turned in a perfect clicker fetch. (I'll write about the billion errors I made when I do my clicker training learning - dispite me, my dog did ok). So, my dog understands the cue fetch - at least over very short distances. He will retrieve in a corridor to the extent that I've got to stop using one now. I have to get from those things to a field...sigh. **** In the afternoon, we went to the river. Another bumble walk with mad GSP puppy and mad Charlie. They were exhausting...but, we did do better. Charlie was with me for periods at least. The owner of mad GSP puppy and I are going to walk together on Sunday, and hopefully come back together for a session with this trainer again in September. We are somewhat determined to be abl to have our dogs together and under control. Get to river - I won't spend time on Charlie's retrieves. Because he can't run round with a dummy in water, he brings the dummy back. He did well, no problems, and swam strongly. He was better than the Collie, Vizsla and GSP. I don't mean that in a horrible "my dog is the best" way (he clearly is not). I mean as a labrador he was a much stronger swimmer and better at fetch in water. The interesting part was managing Charlie around the excitement. I put his harness on and tied him to a post a safe distance away. I got a good passive observer. He has stopped whining. I don't know how that happened. I wish I did... Briefly, his passive observer became a settle. Very, very briefly. I was pretty darned thrilled.... **** Went to pub in the evening. A lovely evening, we sat outside in a large garden. He was moderately well behaved. Apart from... just as the trainer sat down, he pulled the lead from my hand (I have the most impressive bruises developing as my hand was crushed( and legged it to nick a balloon two small children were kicking around. :-[ :-[ :-[ I had to use my "is that for meeeeee" cue in front of everyone! ;D Oh well, it worked, at least! ;D ;D ;D
Re: Charlie's July/August training ;D ;D. You just might start a new trend.... Seriously, thanks so much for sharing all this. I am finding it very interesting, all the info about the food/no food, and the clicker techniques. I am sure I do it all wrong, too....and I KNOW the "food as lure" thing is definitely a problem around here....
Re: Charlie's July/August training Thanks from me too. Every one of us would have our errors highlighted if put under this kind of scrutiny.... We just get into patterns and habits. I know I do! As you know, I also do Flyball, which involves fetching a tennis ball. A lot people think that any dog that desperately wants to retrieve and possess tennis balls would make a perfect Flyball dog. In fact, no! The perfect Flyball dog is a dog who wants to bring back an object to its handler as fast as possible. Anyway, we get a number of dogs turning up to join who are pathologically obsessed with tennis balls. They just won't give them up when they get them. What can sometimes work with these dogs is flooding their home environment with tennis balls - tennis balls lying round everywhere. The tennis balls become less precious. Now, to do that with dummies would be expensive!!! But I wonder if it's an idea worth exploring with the trainer in some form.... Good work on the swimming, Charlie And good work on having actually trained the fetch cue, Julie
Re: Charlie's July/August training [quote author=Oberon link=topic=7009.msg100200#msg100200 date=1407469701] The tennis balls become less precious. Now, to do that with dummies would be expensive!!! But I wonder if it's an idea worth exploring with the trainer in some form.... [/quote] I think that's a great point, yes. right at the end I asked if I had to find a way of decreasing the value of the dummy and the trainer said yes - but then it was someone else's turn so I couldn't ask more. I'll ask today though. By the way, we had a conversation about dogs' state of mind and arousal levels in flyball (there is a collie with us). Arousal levels are often through the roof apparently. This trainer would approve of Obi's attitude to flyball, very, very, much.
Re: Charlie's July/August training Oh this is so interesting,thanks is much for telling us all about it. I'm hoovering it all in! So interesting about the Vizla not really understanding what 'fetch' means without the throw. And well done Charlie on the water retrieves - great job! It's interesting about the luring/ arousal levels too. What I see with Merla is that she gets excited by other dogs, and then if I use a good treat as a lure it can deflect the excitement but sometimes also ramp it up even more, so I end up, in a way, making her worse by using the treat and getting further away from the aim of her just poddling past and around other dogs without caring. On a tenuously linked theme, we do fun (non-competitive) agility at our obedience club one evening a week in a member's paddock. M loves it, and importantly the atmosphere is really calm- there's only a few of us, very relaxed, lots of space and most of the other dogs are relaxed too. I can let her off the lead to take her round the course and when we're putting the equipment away at the end and there's not that much in the way of nutty behaviour and very little pestering of other dogs. It's one of the few times I've ever seen her 'calm' (ish) with other dogs in the frame. The more I think about the way she is around other dogs, the more I think it's anxiety behaviour not actually wanting to play, rather feeling she needs to, to keep herself safe. Or something. Mmm.
Re: Charlie's July/August training [quote author=Stacia link=topic=7009.msg100188#msg100188 date=1407450864]... I had a friend here for coffee this morning and she has had some 1 to 1 training with Helen Philips. Maybe it would be good for my number 1 Labrador who is very excitable. She is only about 40 minutes away from me![/quote] We've had a few sessions with Helen now (1 to 1s and a group class this last Sunday) and I have to say we are very impressed. Highly recommended 8)
Re: Charlie's July/August training Riley wouldn't retrieve on a recall for a while, I think it was because the recall over rode everything else and I didn't have a good stop or hunt command but I also think Riley gets into patterns where he understands the exercise rather than the command's.....that is how you teach the dog to generalise though isn't it? Run the drills until the dog associates the command with the action.....?
Re: Charlie's July/August training A very good read, thank you. My number one Lab is a devil for not bringing the retrieve back in public, he will bring right up to me then pulls back which is a great shame as he was 'fantastic out there' could knock spots of other dogs in stopping to whistle, doing difficult retrieves and then spoiling it all at the last moment. With Lab no two my trainer said to have a tennis ball, hold it in the prayer position, when the dog comes back, take dummy and then throw ball hard down in straight in front, take that back immediately and then dog back into work mode. It works well. Looking forward to hearing more. Perhaps the Lab forum could have a group weekend with Helen!
Re: Charlie's July/August training Glad Charlie has been well enough to take part. I'm finding your accounts of exercises and advice very interesting.
Re: Charlie's July/August training Julie,you've been so good sharing all of this,you just have had an absolutely brain crushing week with all the theory and practice so,really appreciate it. The Park and Settle have stood out for me.Dexter has got better as he has got older but when we are outside and I stop to talk to someone he thinks it's all about him and will only stay sat down and quiet with management.....I'd love to have a melting puddle at my feet
Re: Charlie's July/August training I am glad that it's interesting - it has been a fantastic week for me. I think I'll do two posts now - one to finish off the retrieve (and steadiness) and another one on arousal management - but only a report of today's exercises, as I've got to sort out my thoughts properly on what it all means for me. I will write up the first 4 topics too - as loads of stuff in those too. Gosh, so much stuff! Ok - the retrieve and steadiness. We did some play games today (what will be in the next post). The trainer's assessment is that Charlie is not possessive over objects. He has no general desire to possess things. He is happy to share and play with me. There is something else going on. The value of the dummy is too high and needs to be reduced. And there is something about me and my body language. Rachael's post above covers the value of the dummy point. He is going to get to play with it! ;D ;D ;D On my body language - I've picked up some bad habits. I'll post more detail when I cover the relationship with my dog. But I think that I don't really much care about him bringing back a tennis ball (he mostly does anyway) but I care very, very, much about him bringing back the dummy. I'm tense, I don't play with him, I don't interact with him properly... So that's problem one. The second problem is that some behaviours that are part of Charlie's personality are being prevented (by me, of course). These are fun running around games carrying stuff, and games that involve "killing" stuff. I have been so focused on doing things properly that I have prevented Charlie from having fun with these things he really needs to do. So, he is going to get to do them. But not when he is retrieving a dummy, he is going to have cues that he can play in this way. How much nicer is that than stressing over whether a pet shakes a toy and runs round with it? ;D ;D ;D I'll post on games in a mo. The other aspect is steadiness and "no chase". Well....how can I square my steadiness drills - kicking a tennis ball in front of me, throwing balls around for a dog sitting still, no chase, no chase, no chase; with flinging tennis balls for rewards and playing games killing stuff? It goes like this: I do not teach Charlie not to chase stuff. What I do is get Charlie to do what I want using a broad set of contextual and environmental cues. Charlie is well able to tell the difference between a tennis ball thrown with a "chase!" cue and being steady on a retrieve. I also use my "states" - working; not your turn; settle; to switch Charlie on and off (well, eventually, one day.... ;D ;D ;D). And I have a fully proofed recall and stop to deal with the football games on the beach situations (again, one day...). hmmm...lots to think about here. I have lots invested in steadiness training and this is a completely different tack....a very attractive one though.
Re: Charlie's July/August training Sounds excellent I really like the emphasis on 'environmental cues'. Dogs CAN learn the difference between a formal retrieve and a fun one, a tug of war game and a need to hold gently, a 'let's run round with a toy' and the need to return something to hand. We just have to use cues to differentiate the situations and be consistent in their use. I really think all this will work. When Charlie gets to exercise his inner hunter morning, noon and night he won't have to be so protective of the opportunity to do so
Re: Charlie's July/August training Wow! This is soooo much good info. I must say I don't know where to start using it all. Your head must be spinning Julie. I also love the idea of a working mode and play mode type thing. The application might be harder than the knowledge though. For me anyway. Lol Well done you on going to the training week and being so focused and driven to implement it all. I also love the way you talk of the activities in relation to what you want with Charlie. You know your dog so well. Good luck with it all.
Re: Charlie's July/August training [quote author=bbrown link=topic=7009.msg100224#msg100224 date=1407486556] Riley wouldn't retrieve on a recall for a while, I think it was because the recall over rode everything else and I didn't have a good stop or hunt command but I also think Riley gets into patterns where he understands the exercise rather than the command's.....that is how you teach the dog to generalise though isn't it? Run the drills until the dog associates the command with the action.....? [/quote] The question of "drills" came up - the opinion was that repeating and repeating in drills teaches patterns, not cues. I have to generalise Charlie's fetch cue which only has the proper meaning for him when he is doing a clicker exercise or in a corridor. I'm to start with putting a chair upside down that he has to fetch passed. Then a dustbin. I've got to move different things into his "fetch" space. But not run drills.
