If Charlie never gets the reward of the dummy, if someone picks it up when he runs in, or if he is sat on his placeboard and I pick up the dummy each time, then in the scenario I'm training in, he is steady. He is steady if someone is by the dummy - and this has been achieved through someone picking up the dummy if he runs in. So if there is a dummy thrower, Charlie is steady. No probs. If there is not a dummy thrower, and I throw the dummy, or I walk out and place the dummy, Charlie will break for the dummy. He has simply learned that he can get the dummy if there is no-one to pick it up. On his placeboard, if I pick the dummy up each time, I can get him to sit still and not break for the dummy. I do this by starting at a location where he couldn't get the dummy before me, and I work up to throwing it over his head. I pick up the dummy each time, and then end the exercise. If I sent him for one dummy, he would break the next time I threw a dummy. So when you say this: There wouldn't be a second time. Charlie would not stay on the board for the second time.
Sorry, @Stacia - I don't mean to sound like "this can't be done! it's impossible!". I don't believe that it's impossible. But I think the way to go is to fade out the dummy thrower. To gradually inch the dummy thrower away from the dummy, inch by careful inch, to desensitise him to the split second when he is looking for the point at which he could 'beat' people to the dummy, once I get over that, I think it will be ok.... I could punish Charlie - I could shout "NO!" "AH-AH!", I could body block him, or intimidate him when he breaks for the dummy. I think that would work. But I'm not going to do that, I'm going to do this without doing that....if it kills me! And it might, at this rate....
Is there any way of getting Charlie to calm himself down as a condition of a retrieve being thrown? - with my little hot-head we realised that if we waited till her tail stopped swishing to/fro it meant she was calm enough not to run in. If the tail swished, then no retrieves thrown - when swishing stopped then retrieves happened (which she quickly learnt) but if she could control her swishing tail then she could control herself. Is there perhaps anything like that for Charlie? only flinging ideas in - they are all different. (Mind it is a real pain trying to watch her tail at the same time as marking the dummy !)
I honestly think it is very straightforward with Charlie - getting the dummy is very, very rewarding and he has simply learned the circumstances in which he can help himself to that reward. I think this was likely caused by too many failures when I started training steadiness. I think if you are going to try to train steadiness without using any punishments, and no restraints, then it's much better for it to be close to an 'errorless' process and mine was far from errorless.
Does Charlie understand what you want? Sometimes I think it is difficult for dogs to know if you can never say 'no, this is not what I want or yes, this is what I want? If you ask him to sit (and stay) will he do that under all conditions? If so, then it is sorted I'll shut up now, just that I do understand what you are going through having gone through it with number 1 Lab
No, no, please don't think you need to 'shut up' @Stacia - I love that you are interested and comment, it's helpful to talk to people about it! I wouldn't characterise it as Charlie not knowing what I want but it is definitely a challenge of avoiding punishment when struggling to prevent access to a reward, yes, for sure. I can't just abandon my commitment to training without punishment though just because it's going to be a struggle otherwise. Anyway, once I've figured it out and cracked it, I'll know for next time what to do....
You might have an easier dog next time as I have I am sure my first Lab Drift was more difficult because of his months out of training with his enforced rest re broken elbow, maybe the same with Charlie? Have you tried saying 'leave"?
It's a mix of things with Charlie - his personality, my reluctance to seriously embark on steadiness early enough (because I thought, as a show line dog, his enthusiasm to retrieve should be nurtured ), certainly the long breaks in training haven't helped at all, but mainly the mistakes I made in his early steadiness training - I moved too fast, and didn't stop him self rewarding.
The tedious but very, very, necessary bit....the long slog of proofing. Proofing stay (wait) on a busy bit of Wimbledon Common with dogs, ball throwers, etc. all around - and throwing a dummy over Charlie's head. All with the very, very considerable help of a placeboard. You can't really see the distractions, because the GoPro makes the background look so far away, but there were stacks of dogs, people, dogs with balls....cars, and even a kite. And the dog with the owner and a ball thrower was a SPANIEL. Charlie's biggest temptation - a spaniel and a ball thrower! Nothing like where we've got to get to, of course, but baby steps along the way. proofing wait by julieandcharlie julieandcharlie, on Flickr
Such a good boy! I can see how the place board is really helping "glueing" his bum to the floor. I've not used one but I can see how valuable they can be with this sort of behaviour. He always looks so happy when he's working.
Today, Charlie got to touch a dummy again - first time in ages. He celebrated with victory laps. Norty Charlie! Forgave him though (although didn't give him a biscuit!). He settled down later, and did some good work. victory laps by Julie T, on Flickr
I quite often have trouble viewing your video's on flickr @JulieT, but I could view this one, how odd.
