Re: Choc Charlie's training log [quote author=JulieT link=topic=9533.msg141228#msg141228 date=1422907589] Does that mean Charlie might get better or worse in 9 months time? ;D ;D ;D I can't do more excitable and naughty than I've already got! [/quote] Surely more excitable isn't actually possible without him spontaneously combusting!
Re: Choc Charlie's training log [quote author=bbrown link=topic=9533.msg141229#msg141229 date=1422908090] Surely more excitable isn't actually possible without him spontaneously combusting! [/quote] I don't think it is, no! ;D ;D ;D Anyway, back to the training log, enough moaning.... Today, I did a bit of work with my placeboards quite close together. Three placeboards out back, left and right. I've used three place boards before, but at a greater distance, with Charlie closer to the ones I was working on, one or two at a time. Today was about checking whether Charlie really understands his directional cues properly. Because he knows what we are doing when he can see a placeboard, and I have moved slowly to make sure he succeeds, I haven't tested him in this way before. It was a big success. He was super keen to work, because I'd been at work, so he was ready for some fun. The first cue (right) he went back. I just did nothing and after a few seconds cued front to reset. The second cue (right) he went right. He made two more errors, but when he wasn't rewarded, he started to listen - properly. If I went to move my right hand he was poised, waiting to see whether it would be right or back - then bounced like tigger to the right placeboard. He thought it was a great game. It really cheered me up.
Re: Choc Charlie's training log That's great are you treating on the board or off it? We did directional stuff today too which is working well but on a rather shaky stop foundation. We will be working on our stop whistle needless to say!
Re: Choc Charlie's training log In this exercise, with the placeboards close and fast repeats, I was paying at me - with the click as the release. I can just choose these days whether Charlie stays where he is or moves on the click - whatever the exercise. Charlie knows from my body language where I'm going to deliver the treat, it seems. If I want something in particular, I make it obvious.
Re: Choc Charlie's training log Today I've been working some more on Charlie's hold - I'm finding it super annoying! I cannot get him to keep his mouth and head still as soon as I advance the criteria from a grasp. The rest of the clicker retrieve has long been in place, but not the hold - and he approaches me with the dummy held so lightly it will often slip out of his mouth (he'll pick it back up again, but that's not the point). Driving me quite mad. I've spent several sessions with the trainer now, and haven't been able to progress it, no matter what I try. Sigh... Here he is refreshing his change direction whistle. This run for chicken game builds up my bank balance for my "turn away from that now" cue. I'd normally be running and the distances would be much greater, but I had to stand still to do the video... https://www.flickr.com/photos/123706979@N04/16255693808/
Re: Choc Charlie's training log Riley had quite a loose hold on dummies. I changed to Working Dog Company dummies which slipped out if he didn't hold on to them which helped. Sometimes you see heavier dummies suggested. Have you tried different shapes or weights? A dumbbell that can't slip out might also help? Or the small dummies that are like little bombs - bitesize but the same fabric then you can gradually increase size. Obi is loving them!! When I had a consistent hold on one type I took the same approach as I used when weaning him off the rabbit skin(which we'd introduced as a highly desired retrieve) 2 or 3 with the object the works with the odd retrieve with a different object. It would be somewhat disastrous for us if Riley was picky on dummies, it'd make class difficult. None of that is rocket science and you've probably already tried all of that but I thought I'd post anyway ;D
Re: Choc Charlie's training log That's helpful...hmmm... I'm not sure it's about the dummy at all - it's about the delivery, I think. Although he is more inclined to drop larger and heavy things, and won't drop balls. If he's decided that he is keeping the item for himself he never drops it....If he's going to hand it over, he is relaxed, drops his head on approach (thinking er...don't really wan to hand it over....) and sort of fumbles it....he doesn't take any responsibility for giving it to me, probably because he doesn't really want to....
Re: Choc Charlie's training log Can you get him to look up on delivery? Hands up on your chest? A look at me? Hand on the chest and stroke up to get the chin up?...... I found a hand target helped Riley when we were fumbling the handover too.
Re: Choc Charlie's training log That's what I'm trying to clicker train, to lift his head while holding the dummy. I'm trying to back chain it. But thinking it might have defeated me...I just can't get it, even though I've spent half the last three 121s on it...plus the initial tutition. He won't hold the dummy on arrival at all, he'll just drop it if he can't put it in my hand right away. Or decide he's not going to hand it over after all.
Re: Choc Charlie's training log If he picks it up again, does he deliver properly that time? What do you do if he doesn't? What do you do if he does?
Re: Choc Charlie's training log Hi there- did you see those lovely videos Claire Raymond posted on Positive Gundogs where she was waving treats around and bopping the ends of the dummy and keeping a rock-solid hold? I'm probably not helping by mentioning these mind, I put them in the 'my next dog will do that' box (!), but would more static holding stuff work, or have you done that to death?
Re: Choc Charlie's training log Yes, that is what I'm trying to do. I think some were by Jo Laurens. None of this is working...when I say it's not working, I mean I am going back to Helen Philips each session, having failed to move on to the next step. She thinks it's me, that I'm not enjoying this (she's right) and I'm messing it up. I think she thinks both me and Charlie are both nuts about this! ;D ;D ;D Charlie will happily munch on a dummy while gazing at a treat. Let's face it, he's in two minds which is worth more...and the dummy usually wins... [quote author=editor link=topic=9533.msg141692#msg141692 date=1423074104] If he picks it up again, does he deliver properly that time? What do you do if he doesn't? What do you do if he does? [/quote] Yes, he'll give me the dummy when he picks it back up (although it's not a great delivery). I just take the dummy, no reward. Added: sorry, if he picks it up and doesn't deliver it, it's because he's legged it. I repeat my "give" cue once, which often works (then no reward) and if not, I ignore him. He'll eventually give it to me (no reward).
Re: Choc Charlie's training log So had a complete random thought today while training Obi.....he's so short if he's at my feet and sitting he's in that ideal chin up position. Could you get Charlie in that position and give him the dummy really lowering it from above so he's almost straining up and back to take it and back chain from there? You've probably already tried it but I don't recall you saying.....
Re: Choc Charlie's training log Yes, that is the position he's in for the clicker training, although not straining upwards, his chin is up. I clicker trained the sit with head up before introducing the dummy. Have also tried him standing with me on a low stool. I think he is more comfy standing. It's a chronic mouthing of the dummy. Which doesn't happen if he is running with it, but does if he is walking although it's better with some dummies than others. I've got another 121 next week, and I think I'm going to ask for another way to do this...
Re: Choc Charlie's training log hmmm I remember thinking (which was why I posted) that if Obi's chin was that high I wonder if he is even physically capable of mouthing or chewing? I knew it was unlikely that I'd come up with something you and Helen haven't thought of between you Good luck with your 1-2-1. Looking forward to hearing how it goes!
Re: Choc Charlie's training log If I hold a tennis ball in the 'prayer position' Rouke would not mouth the dummy, he concentrates on the ball!
Re: Choc Charlie's training log You have to wait until they concentrate on the ball and then they stop the mouthing, when you feel the time is right, gently take the dummy and throw the ball to the ground down in front of you. You will then find he mouths the ball ;D But that doesn't really matter in my opinion, can work on that later.
Re: Choc Charlie's training log Training today, on the rugby field.... I was working on my stop whistle with my placeboards, it went very well. Then, he seemed to have forgotten his right and left cues. : So we had to refresh those. It made me think that I need to really tighten up my "maintenance" programme. So my trainer says to teach something and then put it in "maintenance" where I refresh it to keep the behaviour. I obviously haven't been doing enough left and rights (been concentrating on back which used to be the weakest but is now the strongest). What do other people do about this? I'll have to go back a few steps as wanted to do Ts now I have a good back (both at a distance and me at a distance from Charlie) and strong stop but couldn't move to that as my left and rights suddenly seemed so weak. I was also asking him to do his placeboard work while there was a dummy on the ground at my feet. Which he found very difficult, but we managed. This is part of his "you still have to follow cues when you can see a dummy" training. : Here he is picking up the rugby field (lucozade sports bottles discarded by the players yesterday) before we started work. picking up by julieandcharlie, on Flickr Then, at the end, I told him "go free" to have a sniff along the hedges while I packed the placeboards away. He found a rugby ball. : : : He immediately ran off with it and ignored his recall. Then, he just laid down with the ball between his paws and looked at me. I decided that I'd wait him out. So made myself comfy in the landrover. Eventually, he came closer with the ball, ran round with it for a bit, and then very eventually he dropped it at my feet. I decided to reward him for that, but then thought maybe I shouldn't have. I don't reward after any other type of keep away. So maybe that was a mistake. This ball obsession is getting a bit nuts now....I know I've got to work through the programme again. I need to sit down with a spreadsheet and plan the time I have. Just doesn't seem to be enough time to fit everything in!
Re: Choc Charlie's training log I think you're in the hardest phase at the moment because your list of things to learn or sort is still significant and you want to maintain all the things you've done so far. I think we're just squeaking out of this phase (but only just) and it becomes really clear when doing our retrieves in class which bits need refreshing because standards have slipped or proofing/extending because we're in our comfort zone(rarely in class to be honest but I hope that makes sense) Our trainer is fond of telling us off for over complicating and anticipating problems when all we're trying to do is "a posh game of fetch" made up of straight lines, heelwork, sit/stay and recall ;D I'm really, really sure once you get this dummy excitement licked things will really open up for you and be much easier. The things that need work will be more obvious too because you'll see the problems in relation to the retrieves whereas at the moment it's all happening to some degree in isolation so you're having to keep track of lots of different threads. My list with Riley is maintenance on the basics because even just a couple of long days out shooting impacted these(and if we want to working test this summer these have to be good) plus really start to push on with his stop as that will be our platform for all the other handling. Next on the list after the stop is to extend his distances and also keep working on his straight lines so he can hold a line without the help of noise(gunshot or dummy thrower bbbbbbrrrrrrrppp) or visual aids(marker, dummy thrower, pathway etc). So that's six things, three of each (maintenance and newish) I don't think I could cope with any more!!! ;D
