Re: Choc Charlie's training log Yes, I think I've got to have a good think about how to be more effective and get benefits for my training time. He has been "walked" more by other people recently, so sloppy lead work and free running, which does nothing for his training....
Re: Choc Charlie's training log Your hooligan has come a long way with some hefty hurdles in his path, don't forget that ;D
Re: Choc Charlie's training log Oh yes, I know. Good to be reminded though. I only have to look back to last June/July when he got back off lead after all those months when I thought it was hopeless to ever think I could take him to a clicker class.... It is all about my own effectiveness now, I think. There is SO much I don't know. Things I suddenly realise I've been doing wrong or that I've been doing in an ineffective way.... ;D
Re: Choc Charlie's training log Maybe a rethink of goals will help focus the to do list? What do you want to do with Charlie? Other than "more"
Re: Choc Charlie's training log [li]On a day to day basis, I need him to stop nicking stuff when we are out and about! ;D ;D ;D[/li] [li]And for safety, I need him to be able to follow instructions when he thinks there is "something out there" to fetch.[/li] [li]Plus, I need his focus on me so we can continue to enjoy having off lead time in busy areas and that's about controlling him and using his desire to play and retrieve as effective rewards.[/li] The gundog training puts structure around these things for us, makes it a positive thing to do not just a list of "problems" to tackle, and is a lot of fun. I practically count the days to my weeks away training, I enjoy them hugely. I have no goals to work Charlie. I'm not going to go shooting really, and I'd never let Charlie within a millions miles of a barbed wire fence, or risk injury, it just isn't something I could ever do - we are only playing at this. But if I could ever take him on a shoot over day, have him stay under control with all that excitement, that would be something quite special, I think. So I have a hope we might do that....someday....
Re: Choc Charlie's training log The second session today was much better - he decided he did remember his lefts and rights after all! ;D ;D ;D So we got half a T done (I only have 2 placeboards with me) which went well. After the 3rd rep though he decided it was quicker if he just skipped the first placeboard and went directly to the last one! But soon sorted that. I think I don't "mix it up" enough, and don't change things fast enough....I keep doing the same thing until it goes wrong. Although today I just think it was more about him getting the hang of it.
Re: Choc Charlie's training log Pleased his memory returned ;D I know what you mean, I often do one too many reps and then kick myself : definitely easier to mix it up when you've got an assistant compared to being on your own
Re: Choc Charlie's training log Yes, I used to move on too fast, now I don't move on fast enough. I notice this when I go back to the trainer. I'll be showing her where we are and she'll immediately say "great, now put a ball out" (a distraction) or "ask for X" in addition. I'm always sort of wondering that I don't spot my dog has "got that" and not quick enough to work out what to do next (have to go back to a plan first!).
Re: Choc Charlie's training log Glad things perked up a but later. I think that often happens, with dog memories as well as humans, that sometimes they need some time to 'file the information' (or in this case, dredge out the memory) before returning to it. Loving these reports by the way, both the successes and the Charlie antics
Re: Choc Charlie's training log Felt on a bit of a roll today... We did some lovely backs to the placeboard, a stop whistle, then rights and lefts. Have had to shorten up the distances, but that's ok. We can extend them again now, as he seems to have really got that. I also did more work on steadiness and had dummies around the place (very close to my feet so I could stand on them. As per I pushed it a bit far a one point and he made a mistake. Darn it. I think errors creeping in like this are a big failing. We worked on lining to a placeboard (of course we've done that lots in the first place). I was using my blind retrieve cue and then thought this was maybe a bad thing to do? I reckoned that I'd associate my blind retrieve cue with running out until he hears stop/hunt. But at only a relatively short distance, he was putting his nose down to search (this is what he'll do sometimes on a blind). So I reckon I need to ask the trainer about this....
Re: Choc Charlie's training log [quote author=JulieT link=topic=9533.msg142697#msg142697 date=1423507579] at only a relatively short distance, he was putting his nose down to search (this is what he'll do sometimes on a blind). So I reckon I need to ask the trainer about this.... [/quote] When you say search does he go off his line and start to zigzag or hunt an area? If he does then I would say that's not ideal. If his nose is down because something has drawn it down but he's still travelling and holding straight I'd be ok with that personally but I wouldn't push him on his distance Fab that his directional is really getting cemented !
Re: Choc Charlie's training log It's funny with blinds.... Without placeboards, just blinds: if he really thinks that he knows roughly where the dummy might be, he's off. So, for example, I did lots of blinds to the edge of our field on the Common, and he'll gallop out to the edge like it's a marked retrieve. But if it's more of a "genuine" blind, he'll zig zag. Hence, wanting to use the placeboards...so the blind retrieve cue seemed to start him hunting, he wasn't zig zagging, just had his nose down all the way to the placeboard. I guess I should drop the blind cue, get him lining out straight first...he doesn't do this on his back cue, he zooms straight out to the board...
Re: Choc Charlie's training log I've been super busy the last couple of days, so haven't had chance to do much...but I've tried to work "follow cues with distractions" into our day to day things. So if we are doing something, anything, there is a dummy with us. Just there, not to be touched, just to be ignored while we get on... It's tricky though, because I needed to keep guarding the dummy and have slipped up a couple of times. It is working though...we are getting better and what we do in the house has worked in the garden. Might try with a football next. His dummy and balls and toys are bigger distractions than his full dinner bowl though. We can do more with his dinner as a distraction than a dummy. I can't believe I relied on food all that time....
Re: Choc Charlie's training log Yesterday, I spent half a day with the gundog trainer and had a great time. We looked at Charlie’s perennial problem of messing about with dummies, and reviewed what we have tried so far – although I don’t have a great hold on the clicker retrieve, it’s pretty good - we got him lifting his head more and seeking my hand - and the trainer does not think doing more work on it will improve matters. We thought that we were pretty much out of options, so we are going to try different things. The first is that we are going to give Charlie a lot of retrieves using something very similar to a “switch retrieve” which is where the dog is rewarded by a retrieve for a retrieve, but required to be steady and deliver to hand. If that doesn’t work, we are going to teach Charlie his run around cue, but with dummies. That is we are going to put the behaviour of running around and killing dummies on cue (this is on cue but we’ve never used dummies) and then try to distinguish fetch and run around. So, step one, we need to establish a framework for the baselines to measure performance. The results are either pass or fail but in one of 4 categories: Pass - 1 Near perfect - neat pick up, direct return, seeks my hand Pass- 2 Ok - some hesitation, wavering on return or small circle victory lap Fail - 3 Poor - large or numerous victory laps, but eventually gives Fail - 4 Terrible - victory laps, kills and keep away to chew behaviour The answer to the question “how many retrieves will Charlie do before he has had enough” is: somewhere over 58. That is, he hadn’t had enough, and didn’t lose any speed, after 58 fetches today, and wouldn’t come in from the garden because he wanted another fetch. But they were in the kitchen and garden, so were not physically demanding. Obviously, he would get very physically tired if those had been over a larger distance. He retrieved with a pass 93% both in the kitchen and garden, but failed on the new rabbit skin dummies both in the kitchen and in the garden. However, after 29 fetches in the kitchen, his performance was better in the garden in that he scored better on the other new items (apart from the rabbit skin dummies) in the garden. So, he was better on the second set of 29 retrieves, than the first – so…cautiously optimistic…we’ll see what happens out of the garden tomorrow. I think there is a danger with this strategy that it actually feeds his obsessive behaviour, so we are watching out very carefully for signs that’s the case…. Today's results.... (the table is all over the place, but you get the idea....) New With toggles or dangly bits Nearly new Kitchen Garden Rugby ball Y 1 1 Mongoose tug toy and strap 1 1 Rabbit skin tug toy and strap 1 1 Mesh ball 1 1 1 Mesh ball 2 1 1 3in hexbumper Y 1 1 Hard 1Ib dummy 1 Y 1 1 Hard 1Ib dummy 2 1 1 2in orange hexbumper 1 1 Rabbit skin ball 1 Y Y 2 1 Rabbit skin ball 2 1 1 Rabbit skin ball 3 1 1 Rabbit skin ball 4 1 1 Speed ball 1 (run around toy) 1 1 Speed ball 2 (run around toy) 1 1 2 Ib hard dummy 1 Y 1 1 2 Ib hard dummy 2 1 1 Orange monkey Y 1 1 Green monkey 1 Y Y 2 1 Green monkey 2 Y Y 2 1 Camo dummy Y Y 2 1 Canvas disc dummy Y 2 1 Old 1Ib soft dummy 1 1 Rubber ball 1 1 1 Rubber ball 2 1 1 Rubber ball 3 1 1 Rubber ball 4 1 1 New rabbit skin dummy Y 4 4 Used rabbit skin dummy Y 3 4 Number pass 27 27 Number fail 2 2 Score 93.10% 93.10%
Re: Choc Charlie's training log Well I'm not sure he can be any more obsessed so it sounds like a great plan to me. I'll be really interested to see what happens when you start to really run the legs off him, will he chill out or will he stay further away because he's tired ie as soon as he's picked up the dummy. Either way you are going to end up with a seriously athletic boy! Not that he's unfit now :
Re: Choc Charlie's training log He can be more obsessed - the extreme of his behaviour is to refuse to leave an area where he got lots of fetches. :-\ This started to happen around water, because balls were used as part of his hydro. It started to happen in the garden tonight. So I think I have to change the location of the fetches (that's me carrying 3 stone of dummies and toys around the Common). I think what would happen first is he will fail to return, he'll drop the dummy on the return and go to sniff. That has never actually happened, but it has happened a couple of times in play with balls, when his excitement levels are low (just ambling along, very relaxed on a walk).
Re: Choc Charlie's training log Well, we've been following the "retrieve for a retrieve" for 4 days now - so we've done 4 sessions, and lots more mini sessions in the house and gardens. The downside is it has ruined what steadiness we had, well, not completely removed it but significant step back. I'm not too worried about this, as I think it'll come back easily enough. But it does mean I'm working with a version of the switch retrieve without steadiness - as soon as he offers me the dummy, he gets another one thrown. The upside is it's working. Or, rather, according to the spreadsheet that I'm filling out, each session has been better than the last. So the only evidence I have is that it's working. One problem is that he messes about with new things, much more than with familiar things. That's the reason why I have such a long list of articles that he is fetching. But the novelty of the item seems to be a massive factor. It's not that it's a particular shape, or size, it must be a new smell. So, if I have two identical dummies, I can get him to bring one back perfectly, but put in the identical - but just new - dummy and I have to start again. So one thing I have to be careful about is whether I'm really making progress or whether the things I'm trying to get him to bring back are just becoming a bit more familiar! I'm waiting for a delivery of 24 new soft dummies, so once I have those I can be a bit more accurate in seeing whether there really is an improvement. I do run out of new dummies very quickly!
Re: Choc Charlie's training log Blimey, Julie, 24 new dummies? In all the years I've been training I have never bought that many dummies. Hope it's worth it.
Re: Choc Charlie's training log I know! But what else to do? A particular challenge is new dummies! If I don't train with new dummies, I can't expect him to bring new dummies back. And in the exercises at class, we have to work with new dummies (new in the sense he hasn't fetched that particular dummy before). The thing is, I don't think that even 24 new dummies will be enough - I think they become old dummies very quickly, and that's why I might be getting the improvement - so I'll have to put a bucket of my used dummies out at training too and ask people if they will swap their dummies with me. It's mad, I know.... ;D ;D ;D
Re: Choc Charlie's training log Well, the solution is simple. Use your 24 new dummies until they have lost whatever it is that Charlie finds so irresistible, then donate them to your trainer to be used in group training.
