Choc Charlie's training log

Discussion in 'Your Training Logs' started by JulieT, Jan 16, 2015.

  1. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    Re: Choc Charlie's training log

    Charlie mistakes his "sit up" cue for "if I stare at the chicken long enough it will levitate into my mouth" cue during today's follow cues with distractions session... ;D ;D ;D

    [​IMG]tray of chicken by julieandcharlie, on Flickr
     
  2. bbrown

    bbrown Moderator Forum Supporter

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    Re: Choc Charlie's training log

    With willpower that string it just might!!

    He's sooooooooo shiny :*
     
  3. sunsetpines

    sunsetpines Registered Users

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    Re: Choc Charlie's training log

    mmmmmm chicken..... ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
     
  4. Lisa

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    Re: Choc Charlie's training log

    I think we have to invent a new vocabulary here. Much like the Inuit have 52 words for snow, Julie has to have 52 words for the varying degrees of "newness" of dummy....pristine, touched once, twice-retrieved....all the way to old hat...er, dummy.... ;)
     
  5. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    Re: Choc Charlie's training log

    ;D ;D ;D ;D

    That is so true! Everything I have now has been retrieved at least 10 times, apart from 3 carefully horded rabbit skin dummies I got for Christmas. Trouble is, those are so very difficult for him! So I hope my boring, but new, canvas dummies come tomorrow.

    He'll now bring back the loaned rabbit skin dummy, that represented stratospheric levels of excitement 5 days ago - but is it because it's just no long new? :-\ :-\ :-\
     
  6. Stacia

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    Re: Choc Charlie's training log

    Be careful what you train for ;D Often we teach our dogs, in the dog's mind, not what our intention was!
     
  7. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    Re: Choc Charlie's training log

    er....ok! ;D
     
  8. JulieT

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    Re: Choc Charlie's training log - Sunday Training

    I went to watch the advanced class today, it was very interesting.

    We were measuring our dog's response to stimuli - so the general environment, or toys, moving dummies, dead pigeons (for one dog, not Charlie ;D ).

    We did it working in pairs and testing various things on a scale. One person took notes, the other person had their dog.

    I was working with a handler and a lovely black Lab called Hector, who was also there to get used to things (Charlie is officially an observer at the advanced class, but like today, we can often join in).

    On a scale of 0 - 10 (10 highest level of arousal) Charlie scored 4 just for being on the training field with other dogs. Interestingly, when we added in a dummy he still scored 4. That it, his state of arousal didn't increase (although his reactions changed, and he could do different things and not others but he was still at 4).

    I was quite pleased by this, I think went we first started going, it would have been much higher.

    Anyway, then we moved on with the exercise. We had to choose a level and do ten reps of a cue our dog knows well, and then add in the additional item.

    I decided I'd keep working with the environment alone. So first, I took Charlie into the shed and got him to do 10 sit on my left on his placeboard. He got 10/10 (that means repeated the action perfectly, 10 times).

    I then took him out on the field, still busy with people and dogs. And he got 10/10 again. Which was very surprising - in his baseline, he didn't follow a "sit on left" cue perfectly at all (without a placeboard). He hesitated, and sat all wonky.

    I think that this reflects that I've trained the behaviour with the placeboards very well. Which makes me want to think very hard how I leverage that into my training more generally. Both the method I went through to train the boards, and how I use properly them now the behaviour is so strong.

    A very, very worthwhile session, and I'll be photocopying the tables and scales to use in my training plan, for sure. Might be a bit tricky without a helper to do the notes, but I'll give it a go.
     
  9. bbrown

    bbrown Moderator Forum Supporter

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    Re: Choc Charlie's training log

    This is really fascinating.....

    I'm a bit of a geek and have been known to run the odd spreadsheet or two for various things but I've struggled to put that kind of rigour over anything but the most fundamental elements of my dog training. I think because I find 4 dimensions(task, distance, duration, distraction) turns it into a complete monster. Do you or Helen have a grand plan. Or is the plan high level and the detail gets filled in when and where appropriate.

    It really does come across as a very scientific approach which is at odds with the perception of +R as fluffy and permissive (which is obviously untrue but perception nonetheless)

    How do people of a less geeky nature take to it or do you think it predominantly appeals to people who are that way inclined?
    I wonder if it's one of the reasons we constantly get into science vs art discussions? That some people can't or don't want to have this kind of approach.

    It sounds like you and Charlie are reveling in it though and his progress is wonderful to hear ;D
     
  10. bbrown

    bbrown Moderator Forum Supporter

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    Re: Choc Charlie's training log

    I reread my post and just wanted to say I hope it doesn't come across that I think people trying to train +R, force free or whatever best describes it are weird in any way (personally I take pleasure in my geekiness) but more I was wondering if more scientific types find it easier in some way, not just embracing the science of learning which I think is increasingly accessible but in actually going through the processes in a rigorous way because that comes naturally to them :)
     
  11. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    Re: Choc Charlie's training log

    [quote author=bbrown link=topic=9533.msg145531#msg145531 date=1424790376]

    How do people of a less geeky nature take to it or do you think it predominantly appeals to people who are that way inclined?
    I wonder if it's one of the reasons we constantly get into science vs art discussions? That some people can't or don't want to have this kind of approach.

    [/quote]

    It doesn't sit well with lots of people but, I'd say out of a class of about 14 (working in 7 pairs) everyone learned something about their dog. It very well may be the case that improvements (particularly when you are trying to change a behaviour) are very slow through positive methods, and so being able to record gradual improvements is pretty important. I think lots of people found it encouraging to see that their dog was getting better at X with Y level of distractions over even the training session.

    So, for example, one dog there has quite suddenly sometimes stopped wanting to retrieve when (apparently) there are other people around. But what the trigger is, exactly, is hard to work out (is it the people, or other dogs, or the field he is in where he heard gunshot and was frightened). Without good notes, it's going to be a bit random to work that one out...

    I think I learned something about effective training - my placeboards were trained from scratch using positive only methods and following a very precise path set out by the trainer, nothing negative has ever happened to Charlie while training the placeboards and I've taken my time and really nailed them. So his cues using the placeboards are super strong such that I can put pressure on them by using them with distractions. I need to apply this to training, or retraining, other things.
     
  12. Stacia

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    Re: Choc Charlie's training log

    Once the dog is reliably working on the place boards, when you remove them, is the cue just as strong or do you have to start again?
     
  13. JulieT

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    Re: Choc Charlie's training log

    They strengthen the cue, for sure, although I haven't tested this much.

    For example, Charlie's cue to sit in front from wherever he is was wonky. If he approached me from the side, he'd just sit down in front side on, he didn't swing his bum round to be straight. Using the placeboards though, meant he did swing his bum round to sit straight on the board. This transistioned off the boards perfectly. After enough reps using the board, he just swung his bum round to be straight without the boards. Back, left and right work just as well without the boards too (although I've just tried it once or twice as I want more distance before I fade the boards out properly).
     
  14. JulieT

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    Re: Choc Charlie's training log

    Well, I’ve had a very interesting time. Having had a couple of days off training (been working) we got back out today.

    First, a few run arounds with Charlie’s run around toy. He did run around a bit, but mainly brought it back (it’s his choice, I don’t insist he runs around with it for a certain time, if he doesn’t want to do so).

    Then I did a fetch with the run around toy – we’ve always been able to do this, it’s a standard thing we do to distinguish fetch from run around. A weird thing, he didn’t bring the toy back, but dropped it and went to sniff. That is a very strange thing for him to do indeed.
    So we move on to do a few other things, and then I send him back for a dummy as we walk, he picks up the dummy, but again goes to sniff. I make my attention getting noise, and he brings it back, which I reward very heavily with food.

    Then we repeat a send back with a new ball – he is perfect, runs out and back with speed and enthusiasm. Again I reward very heavily.
    After that, we do some repetitive clicker retrieves with two dummies that last week I couldn’t get back off him for love nor money and he is perfect. So we move on to throwing those a little way and again, perfect.

    Back on the field, I throw a dummy with the same movement as for run around (but no verbal cue), and he brings it back. I then toss exciting dummies around, and he brings them all back right away.

    So, what’s going on?

    I think the programme has dampened down his mad desire for dummies a bit, he is acting in a more “normal” way, and this has shown my return is still weak even when I get rid of the hooling behaviour. But I think that is a very easy behaviour to address through heavy rewards for a fast return. At least the run around seems to be going away.

    I need to move on now, so am going to try with more exciting dummies, the rabbit skin dummies and then brand new rabbit skin dummies in new places, before I rework steadiness but I’m not going to reintroduce any steadiness until after my 121 on 8th March.
     
  15. bbrown

    bbrown Moderator Forum Supporter

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    Re: Choc Charlie's training log

    hhhmmmm how interesting! could it be starting to work? saturation point is reached?

    now to keep him on the knife edge of keen but not mad :D

    and I think you're wise to leave the steadiness alone for now/
     
  16. Karen

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    Re: Choc Charlie's training log

    That really sounds like progress Julie!
     
  17. JulieT

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    Re: Choc Charlie's training log

    Yes, I think so. I'm a bit worried about him going to sniff. He doesn't do that, really. It means he is stressed - obviously, not hugely stressed/distressed but it's his way of saying "I need a break". It's not something he would do really, unless I've trained for too long or unless he thinks he has got something wrong.

    (For the avoidance of doubt, I don't mean that he is such paragon of virtue that won't have a sniff while training, but what I mean is he doesn't really disengage once we've started - he can be so distracted that we can't start, or go off on a mad hoolie with another dog, but that's different).

    So that's a bit concerning....but otherwise, it seems good. And he did only go to sniff twice, the rest of the time he was his normal self.
     
  18. JulieT

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    Re: Choc Charlie's training log

    Well, very interesting time dong my homework - which is to carefully measure Charlie's abilities in the presence of dummies.

    In the kitchen doing 2 things that I have on cue - go to mat and go to place. Both extremely routine, very strong cues which will work in high distraction areas (place works around other dogs outside for example, mat would work in a packed pub and so on).

    First we run through a few "mats" and "places" - of course no problem.

    Then I put a rabbit skin dummy on my knee. Charlie hesitates, but he is able to go to place. But he can't go to mat, which would involve him crossing in front of the dummy, and gets it wrong and goes to place. He follows his "front" cue, but does a down instead of a sit. Eventually, he manages to go to his mat.

    Nothing I didn't know, but it's very interesting creating these baselines of how my dog performs with distractions. Lots of work to do around rabbit skin dummies....

    It's no block buster, but I took a video of it (to check my results).

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/123706979@N04/16051008333/

    (Oh, I see the vid is upside down! haha - that'll make it annoying to watch, oh well, nevermind....).
     
  19. Stacia

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    Re: Choc Charlie's training log

    I was all prepared, with laptop upside down, to see your video, but nothing there for me!
     
  20. JulieT

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    Re: Choc Charlie's training log

    Oh no! I wonder what can be wrong...It looks ok to me - well, apart from it being madly upside down! ;D ;D ;D
     

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