Re: Choc Charlie's training log I could see it, albeit upside down That is interesting. He was expecting you to do something with the dummy ie throw it? And so got focussing on that rather than really "hearing" your command? Love how he went to "place" instead. He obviously realized that you were expecting something but had no idea what, so he tried that...??
Re: Choc Charlie's training log I don't know whether he expected me to throw it - I never throw dummies in the kitchen (not in that scenario, anyway). I found it interesting (believe it or not, this was progress for us ;D ;D ;D). I think it demonstrates that I've got to proof everything around dummies if I ever want him to be able to follow my cues around them. A few seconds earlier, he was able to follow those cues.
Re: Choc Charlie's training log Can see the video now - not sure if Charlie understands what you are trying to teach him, he looked as if he was trying hard to understand when you attempted him to send him to the mat. If it was my dog, I would have told him to leave the rabbit dummy and go onto the mat or place. Just thinking out loud, I may well be up the creek!
Re: Choc Charlie's training log that's impressive upside down drool.... and sorry...but I was distracted by your UK accent.... ;D ;D ;D Guess I need more proofing in my training too!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Re: Choc Charlie's training log [quote author=sunsetpines link=topic=9533.msg146696#msg146696 date=1425174095] and sorry...but I was distracted by your UK accent.... ;D ;D ;D [/quote] That's so funny! ;D ;D ;D We all tend to have them over here....
Re: Choc Charlie's training log Well, today was a bit of a "test day" for the "bring back the dummy" strategy. My final 2 "pristine" rabbit skin dummies: rabbit skin by julieandcharlie, on Flickr So, two weeks ago, he wouldn't bring back new rugby ball dummies, or new canvas. Now, all that is a challenge is rabbit skin. (er...and anything with toggles on, but leave that aside). But the original articles are no longer new, of course. We first played around so he got a lot of short retrieves (which he was running in on) with his rugby balls, and canvas. No problems. Then we did a few memories, which he did fine (although steadiness has gone out of the window a bit). Then, fast short retrieves with "old" rabbit skin... Time to try the new rabbit skin. My plan was to do the fast swap game - as soon as he put a rabbit skin dummy in my hand, I was going to throw an identical new rabbit skin dummy. Off we go, I get the new rabbit skin out of my training vest. He mugged me! He hasn't done that for months! He wacked his front paws into my tummy and nicked one of the dummies! Argghhhh...now he has a stolen rabbit skin dummy! The value of that dummy has just massively increased! And it was already massive! : : : I tried getting him to give it to me - nope. And even worse, it had a flappy bit on it, which I hadn't noticed before (only one of them had a flappy bit - the one he had). I decided to abandon all ambitions towards operant conditioning and bribed him with the dummy I had in my hand... : : : As soon as he gave me the dummy, I said "yes!" and threw the next one, which he brought back - rinse and repeat. Then I started putting the dummy I had behind my back, then in my training vest, so trying to move away from a bribe and also slow down the reward. Anyway, it worked, and I didn't have anymore failures.... I guess I try to move to more "normal" retrieves, but don't know when I should try to do that. Or whether I keep going with these games and more new and exciting dummies for longer. I have a 121 next Sunday, so hope to sort out a way forward then.
Re: Choc Charlie's training log So, here is my completed homework for the last month. 13th Feb – 7th March: Bring back the dummy What I’ve been doing: • “Getting the behaviour” of bringing back the dummy so I can reward it – sometimes this is just throwing dummies in return for bringing back dummies. If this is all I can do, I do it. • Upping his number of retrieves - massively. • Been using a range of articles – and trying to use new articles as often as I can. But my articles become “not new” very quickly. • Working on my clicker retrieve inside and outside (where practical). • Distinguishing “fetch” from other cues. • Working around dummies used as distractions. Results baseline and improvement by julieandcharlie, on Flickr • Only once he got tired of fetching hexbumpers, twice he got distracted when fetching canvas dummies. • Asking him to be steady increases desire and makes it more likely he will mess around with the dummy. • If he thinks he is in a “game” of throw and dummy as a reward for bringing a dummy back, he will bring the dummy back. Even new rabbit skin. Although I can struggle to get the game going at first, once it is going, he will bring anything back. • He doesn’t understand his “run around” verbal cue, the cue is the speed ball and the way I throw it but even then, if he thinks he is in the “fetch game” he brings back the speed ball, even on the cue “run around”. • Nothing, but nothing – no amount of food or other games - comes close to the reward of getting the dummy thrown again – this is the only thing that cuts it for him.
Re: Choc Charlie's training log Wow! That is impressive, and very useful especially as we are going back to basics with dummy training with Benson. Just starting out with short straights with him. He goes loopy though if he knows I have a fur dummy in my hand, so I have to tuck them away and pop him on a lead. Casper is so steady, he just sits patiently watching me like a hawk, but he trembles with excitement watching for a cue to fly! ANYTHING is a cue at this point.... ;D
Re: Choc Charlie's training log Really great chart and progress ;D Btw I've got a rabbit skin dummy with a flap, even putting elastic bands on it Riley somehow manages to pick up the one tiny bit poking out and it turns into a complete hoon!!!! Haven't tried it fir aaaages, wonder what he'd be like now he's improved on the toggle side of things (eventually.....at nearly 4!)
Re: Choc Charlie's training log - Sunday training Had an absolutely exhausting, but amazing, and slightly painful, day. Off to Sunday training – beginners class plus a 2 hour 121. I left at 5am to get to the training ground before other dogs, as Charlie is definitely better if he can have a quiet poo, pee and sniff before we start (and who can blame him!). Beginner’s class first. Charlie did so very well! I was working with the only other retriever there – an Irish Water Spaniel. We were walking with our dogs at heel in line, and then off lead walking in line, then around dummies. No big deal, I hear you say. Except we were doing this on a training field with 4 HPRs learning to quarter to one side of us, and 3 spaniels hunting on the other! They were a little way away – but still! Was pleased when the trainer said Charlie was much improved. Then, we joined the Spaniels (and 2 HPRs who were “being Spaniels”) – we were supposed to walk behind the spaniels whizzing around off lead, then the Spaniels got some retrieves and stood to one side while the retrievers did their retrieves (the Spaniel/HPR fan of a trainer said the Spaniels would be standing by just in case the retrievers didn’t manage it! Cheek! ;D ;D ;D). Charlie was very good, but it was super, super challenging for him. I’d say it is a fair comment to say that not one of the 6 dogs we were with was a very keen retriever. They were running out quite slowly, and often reluctant to pick things up. So there was much waving of very interesting dummies, whizzing of toys, and pheasant pelts and so on. This is the painful bit – it all got a bit too much for Charlie, he pulled me over and I twisted my ankle! So we both went to have a bit of a lie down in the car for 10 minutes to compose ourselves…. ;D ;D ;D the trainer was kind enough to say it was a big jump for Charlie from where we have watched retrieving before in the advanced group “where it’s less chaotic”. We re-joined the group, and Charlie did some good retrieves. His excitement levels were through the roof, although he was silent and able to walk at heel, and he was running out like a mad thing so his paws sounded like a horse galloping along, but he was still “amber” – eg minor messing about but everything came back. Then, my 121. The trainer was very pleased with my results (so that was a boost - I have been worried that I was messing up, this "flooding" with retrieves has been scary to do). We tested them together on the training field and Charlie performed as the results predicted. She was kind enough to say I should save my data, as it was worth writing up and others might be interested. We looked at 2 things – Charlie’s level of arousal in the fetch game. I have some new homework and new techniques to measure Charlie’s arousal and calm him down between exciting fetch games. I’m too tired to write this up now! But looking forward to it. We tried a bit of it today, and it was very, very effective and he was immediately much better. And how I can slow the game down and turn it into more of a traditional retrieve. I got some really good tips. So looking forward to moving on. We ended by sorting out my “T” drill on my placeboards and improving my cues to line to a placeboard. Brilliant session! Feel happy with progress and very motivated to push on. Charlie snored on his memory foam crate mat all the way home, making little grunts of pleasure like a happy, tired dog does - while I battled with the traffic on the M40, then the M25, with my ankle throbbing… : : :
Re: Choc Charlie's training log [quote author=bbrown link=topic=9533.msg148095#msg148095 date=1425825272] Really great chart and progress ;D Btw I've got a rabbit skin dummy with a flap, even putting elastic bands on it Riley somehow manages to pick up the one tiny bit poking out and it turns into a complete hoon!!!! Haven't tried it fir aaaages, wonder what he'd be like now he's improved on the toggle side of things (eventually.....at nearly 4!) [/quote] Yes, I have to add "with flappy bits" to my chart over the next month! ;D ;D ;D
Re: Choc Charlie's training log Sounds like Charlie and you are doing really well hope your ankle heals quickly x
Re: Choc Charlie's training log [quote author=Naya link=topic=9533.msg148220#msg148220 date=1425852745] Sounds like Charlie and you are doing really well hope your ankle heals quickly x [/quote] Thanks! I was very stiff when I got out of the car, but a hot bath and a glass of wine (maybe two...) has worked wonders!
Re: Choc Charlie's training log Yes, there is a Spaniel person who usually leads the group of Spaniels (because there are usually Spaniels, HPRs and just one or two retrievers, it's normal for the group to split up and do different exercises).
Re: Choc Charlie's training log Well, today we continued to work on our retrieve game, in addition to failing to do our pulse rate data homework (see separate thread, which I'll have to get done, as not much time, but anyway...). Now I am working with "easy" things - I never thought I'd say it, but rabbit skin balls, disc dummies and standard canvas dummies are now easy - but trying to introduce delay into the game to slow it all down. With the intention that the gaps between the dummy return and the dummy reward get longer and longer so I move to more "normal" things. The upside was all my games were successful in using different things - bizarrely, I think the order of value (from highest to lowest) is: canvas dummy, canvas disc dummy, rabbit skin balls. But any of these will reward the return of the others. The downside was that I pushed the gap a little too much, and got a run around with the canvas dummy. So I have to take it slowly. My target for the end of the month was 5 seconds, and I pushed it to nearly 10. So that'll teach me to do what the trainer tells me to do! I guess she knows what she is doing! ;D ;D ;D ;D A huge bonus is that because his walks involve this game, Charlie is glued to me. Like a properly trained dog. ;D ;D ;D Walking at heel, coming back on a single word even when there are other dogs and tennis balls launchers etc. I love it. It'll only last until I stop chucking dummies around like there is no tomorrow, but I am enjoying smugly walking past any distraction I care to, with my dog off lead, his attention fixed on me. Hah. Oh well, I'll enjoy it while it lasts....
Re: Choc Charlie's training log My dog is fixated on me and my game bag, but unlike Charlie who walks beautifully to heel, mine is leaping up in front of me wanting the ball. Do you have ideas as to how to get him to walk to heel despite the desire for the ball. In a way I have made a rod for my own back, my 'leave it command' was rewarded with a ball, so every time we see a dog, or bike, or horse, he comes rushing back to me, bouncing around "give me the ball'.
Re: Choc Charlie's training log Well, Charlie will mug me time to time...but I trained my off lead heel with food before I started to reward it with a ball or dummy (which has been very recent). The only time he will walk across me is when I'm walking away from a placed dummy, he is anticipating me turning to my right to send him back. In which case, I don't turn until he has walked 10 paces without doing this. So I suppose....the answer is that he only gets his ball when he is on your left...ask for one step, two steps....
Re: Choc Charlie's training log I think as I wrote the question I answered it for myself You have suggested what I thought! He does do off lead walking well so now to put it with the ball and not to mug, one step, two steps.....Thank you JulieT
