I've been doing a lot of training with Come. I'm trying so hard for it to become an automatic response. At home it is pretty much 100% there (I must confess, I never use it if I know it won't work). I always have a tasty treat at home -- cheese, anything Snowie considers absolutely delicious. He will jump up from a dazed sleep if he hears, "Snowie, come!" It has been a journey and I am always amazed (and thankful!). But the other day I didn't have the cheese ready in my hand -- it was on the kitchen countertop. So when Snowie came racing up to me, he looked very, very, very disappointed when the cheese wasn't ready and waiting. And it made me wonder: what does he think Come means? I think he thinks it means: tasty treat is waiting for you! I don't think he thinks it means: come here. Is this okay? I am practicing Come on our trail walks and it is working really well, although not as perfect as it is at home. The other evening I saw him stop and raise his nose to get a scent. And then he took off down the slope. I shouted, Snowie, COME! in my most excited voice and was amazed when he stopped in his tracks and turned and came. Got his treat. And then took off back to follow the scent... I didn't try calling him after that; I kept on the path at a fast pace and he did come running after me pretty soon. Yes, I know, should've managed it and put him on the leash at that moment. But nevertheless I wondered what he thought Come meant -- pretty sure it just means to him: tasty treat is waiting for you. At which point do I phase out the treats, then? Or will I be permanently carrying treats with me for the rest of our walks?!
Dogs don't really think in terms of 'what does it mean'. I think they sort of 'internalise' the decision making - eventually - so they just 'know' that returning to you when they hear the word 'come'. Is a really good thing to do. So the trick is to keep doing it, and keep doing it, until they just know that it's a great thing to do to return to you - always. You need to always reward it enough to keep the response as you want it. You don't always have to use food though.
I think it's good to mix up the rewards. My two definitely get bored of the same treat over and over, however wonderful it is at first. By mixing up the reward, the dog knows that something good is going to come, but they can't predict what. I have no idea whether it's true or not, but it seems to me that that that unpredictability might add to the excitement.
I wouldn't ever phase out the treats completely. But, once the dog is reliable, make them more random. Total Recall is well, well worth a read (and re-read!)
I've read somewhere (on the Labrador site?) about using "gambling" as an effective way to reward, ie don't always treat every time, make the dog wonder, "Will I get a treat this time?" as a way of getting them to come to you every time, maybe this time I'll win something! I must confess I am rewarding Snowie with food every time he comes to me when I say Come; I am afraid of taking the risk of not treating. (I am not a gambler!) I also reward him for checking in on our trail walks, not always with food, but with a cheery smile and a tickle on the head or body and a Good Boy! And do you know what he does when he hears Good Boy? He immediately looks at me for his treat! I think he thinks Good Boy = treat in much the same way that Come = treat. One of the issues I have if I take a really tasty, high-value treat on the walk is that Snowie will not leave my side. He will not sniff, not investigate his surroundings, not interact with other dogs. He is fixated on getting that treat -- I don't even have the opportunity to train Come cos he never leaves me (and he'll bark at me in frustration after a while). So unless I really need him to focus on me, the treats I carry are nice, but not the ultimate (like cheese). He knows if I am carrying his favourite treat among the less favourite; there is no hiding something delicious from him!
It's a brilliant book for older dogs. Brilliant. If you haven't read it then I would heartily recommend it. Buy it if you can, because re-reading it is so valuable too.
I pay for every single recall, too. I think it's too valuable to risk it. I'm not sure I'm 100% committed to the idea of the gambling effect. What I do, though, is vary the reward, so as much as it's always something great, it is sometimes treats, sometimes games. You know your dog better than anyone, so know what floats his boat. If you want to sharpen up a recall, it definitely helps me to pay big for a few goes (this means with a ball in my case) and then start mixing it back up again, so it may be a simple piece of ham, chasing a thrown breadstick, catching a piece of cheese, hunting for a few pieces of kibble in long grass etc etc.
Saba found it hard going, but then he's only one year old, and his reading skills are still developing!
I always treat. And sometimes I treat BIG to mix it up! So a massive chunk of chicken or whole slice of ham sometimes. I'm not willing to gamble as things are going well!! I have also started adding a marker in the minute she turns to head towards me so she knows exactly the thing she is being treated for. I say 'good', but you could use a clicker. I think this has sharpened our recall a bit.
This exactly what we did in order to move to compliance without overt bribery. We started with SIT and made sure dog knew we had treats. Then we put them in our pockets, then the kitchen counter, then the kitchen counter but we were in a different room and had to go to the kitchen to get the treat. The dog still got a treat but it was delayed a bit. With SIT in particular we built in more delay by starting to ask for a series of actions, sit, down, stand. Same with COME which might end in a front, followed by a swing or circle, then a sit or down.
Same here - treat every time for recall. But I have to ask myself why - I rarely treat for "sit" or "down", yet Coco does these actions every time he's asked. I do also ask for a series of actions, like @Snowshoe mentions - that always earns a treat. I'm too wary not to treat every recall I suppose.
I suppose sit or down or stand aren't life-threatening, so they don't need a treat! Come is really important to me, and Snowie doesn't always do it. Sit, stand, down -- easy-peasy! I wish I'd got Come right like I did those. For Snowie, I suppose Come means leaving something nicer...
I think it also comes down to the fact that you have been able to phase out treats for 'sit', 'down' etc. But still need them for 'come'. One day you will also phase them out for 'come' too. Some things just take longer than others. And as you say recall is the most important thing and also the trickiest!
If there is no reinforcer, Coco will eventually stop doing these things. There probably is a reinforcer quite a lot of the time. For example, sit to have a lead put on (hooray! a walk), sit before a door is opened (then the door is opened), sit while you prepare his dinner (you continue to work towards the point where his dinner arrives). All of these things are reinforcers and so you don't need treats. I don't believe in fading out reinforcers, I don't buy the 'gambling effect' at all. But I do believe that the more times your reinforce a behaviour the stronger it gets, it's just that it doesn't have to be food.
yes, you're right. I'd just not thought about what is rewarding for him beyond a treat, a ball, a game of tug etc. There is (usually) a reinforcer.
Moving to these 'life' reinforcers is really important, I think. I don't find it easy at all, but it is the end objective really. I find it particularly difficult with Charlie who values activity over everything else - I don't think I'll ever get to the point with him where he will heel on lead down a busy, smelly street where I can't reward him with activity (just walking forwards on a lead doesn't seem to count all that much!) without at least rewarding him with food.
Yes, I see it as the end objective, and seeing how "sit" and "down" are so ingrained (with those "life" reinforcers) and even "up-dee-doo"* - Coco's cue to get in the car, jump on a wall etc - I can see that it is indeed achievable....eventually * picked to annoy OH, it has to be said in a sing-song tone
