Re: Communication class So interesting. It would be really fascinating to watch, you're right, Julie, I imagine you could learn a lot from even just doing that. I'm not sure how Simba would be classified, he's quite confident around other dogs, and doesn't get intimidated easily, sometimes he comes on too strong, I think, but not always....hmm, is there a category for "Master of the Hump"? It's a bit embarrassing sometimes at the dog park.... :
Re: Communication class [quote author=JulieT link=topic=7532.msg105276#msg105276 date=1409178692] If you find the right professionals (I think that is the hard part) then they have seen worse than Scott and Scout. And they will do 121s at your home too. [/quote] I think that's the problem Julie finding the right person. After my last 121 at home experience I'm wary of doing it again. I didn't feel I learnt anything new and certainly didn't care for some of the methods. I'm considering trying a behaviourist but there is only one near enough that is registered and from the website I'm not sure. Perhaps I should ring and discuss it. The other reason I'm not sure is after reading the article on the Labrador site on aggression it would seem the experts havent got anything new that I haven't tried although perhaps that's not the point. :-\
Re: Communication class The hardest part for me was bridging the gap between total control, on lead or unexciting environments and out and about, no control at all, amazing(for a dog) environments. As a single dog owner without many doggie friends I had to find a professional to help me with this...... I still don't think Riley has great manners and some additional doggie teachers may be just what we're looking for so I await the report avidly !
Re: Communication class I agree, finding the right trainer for you is a nightmare. My round trip to my class on Sunday will be 200 miles. :-\ It's a big compromise for me. [quote author=Jen link=topic=7532.msg105410#msg105410 date=1409240445] The other reason I'm not sure is after reading the article on the Labrador site on aggression it would seem the experts havent got anything new that I haven't tried although perhaps that's not the point. :-\ [/quote] No, I don't think it is the point . Assuming you find a really good trainer, the transmission of practical skills in person far outweighs books and without feedback, we work in a vacuum - it's almost impossible to polish skills without feedback. But mainly it's about set ups, set ups with people and other dogs. Everyone needs help with that. I couldn't help noticing on your other post that it had been several months between Scout and Scott meeting a stranger inside who did what you told them. A training school could massively speed your progress just by providing trained strangers.
Re: Communication class [quote author=JulieT link=topic=7532.msg105413#msg105413 date=1409241599] A training school could massively speed your progress just by providing trained strangers. [/quote] Your right Julie. I shall do more research into what's available and give the behaviourist a ring and discuss it with him. My other problem is getting up the nerve. That sounds ridiculous I know. :-\ Of course my other option is to invite strangers who walk passed to come in and have afternoon tea with my mother while my dogs wander around them or would that be too weird do you think ?
Re: Communication class Getting up the nerve is not ridiculous Jen, it's easy for people to pop along to training classes with their "perfect" dogs but when you face challenges it can knock your confidence and I fully understand. Chatting to the behaviourist will be the best route and he will give you the confidence to take the next step if you feel you want too x
Re: Communication class [quote author=Jen link=topic=7532.msg105471#msg105471 date=1409257363] [quote author=JulieT link=topic=7532.msg105413#msg105413 date=1409241599] A training school could massively speed your progress just by providing trained strangers. [/quote] Your right Julie. I shall do more research into what's available and give the behaviourist a ring and discuss it with him. My other problem is getting up the nerve. That sounds ridiculous I know. :-\ Of course my other option is to invite strangers who walk passed to come in and have afternoon tea with my mother while my dogs wander around them or would that be too weird do you think ? [/quote] No, getting up the nerve is NOT ridiculous. You know how I worried, and worried, about going on that clicker course. I had sleepless nights over it! Finding the right trainer is not straightforward. I've been lucky, but I'm still on the 4th trainer before I can say I think that I've found the right one for me and my dog - 6th trainer, really, if you include the 2 pet dog trainers I tried... I'd do what you need to do. You are so keen and seem so talented on the training, you'd thrive if you could get those two out to workshops and courses. I think you'd love it
Re: Communication class Finding the right trainer is tough, I have been to a few and none of them filled me with confidence or did I agree with some of their training methods, they didn't like it when I told them so :. Julie is right, you are so committed and such a good trainer but above all you want what's right for your boys, just take your time xx
Re: Communication class Thank you Helen and Julie. You are both very kind and I really appreciate the support. I know where to come when I need a boost.
Re: Communication class It was very interesting - not as interesting as it could have been because we got lost and were late (I was driving, OH had the map : ). We did quite a lot on lead as well as off lead, as a huge priority was put on making sure dogs are not reactive on lead and I found that useful. Charlie was fine, apart from pulling towards the field of dogs in the first place, his lead walking was reasonable and he didn't react even when other dogs barked, so I was pleased. The assessment of Charlie is more or less as I thought. First, he is a teenage Labrador. It is quite normal for teenage Labradors to be play monsters and for lots of other dog breeds to find them a bit "in ya face" - resulting in regular telling offs. This is fine, so long as the telling off is done well. Acceptable telling off is a growl and a movement towards the dog being told off - anything more is unacceptable. (There was nothing unacceptable today apart from one dog, not a teaching dog, growled while pushing Charlie, and the trainers went to intervene but a teaching dog separated them before the trainer could get there). Interestingly, the trainers had intact male dogs themselves, and said that neutered male dogs do tend to react to intact male dogs more than other neutered dogs - I've thought this myself just on what I've seen out and about. So were of the opinion that intact male dogs really need to know how to handle situations in an assertive, but not aggressive, way. (I thought that they were going to say I should have Charlie castrated but no, thankfully, they didn't think that or give me a lecture about it). Charlie is (as I thought) a very good natured and gentle dog, confident and is not fearful - but he doesn't have the advanced manners he needs to always stay out of trouble. He didn't get into any trouble today but once it was pointed out to me, I could see when he hesitated and started looking a little unhappy. If a situation gets a bit complicated, he becomes unsure and doesn't quite know what to do. It's not possible to say whether this is because he missed 8 months contact with other dogs, or it's just a teenage thing. The trainers said he looked just like a normal teenage labrador though. He has the clumsiness typical of teenagers. Rushing up, playing too fast, spending just a tad too long sniffing a girl's bottom. One or two sniffs - after being invited is fine - more than that is taking liberties. It was interesting that the trainers were right when they said "he'll get told off for that in a second" and that allowed me to start appreciating what was going on a bit more. There two or three sighthounds and they were all wearing muzzles. It was explained that this was just normal, these dogs were bred to chase and kill smaller furry things, so it's a run of the mill precaution that they take. I think I learned a fair bit - like a Collie on the edge of a playing group of dogs is asking for trouble, and things like that. But because I was late, I missed a fair bit, unfortunately. In terms of what Charlie needs, he needs off lead time with nice adult dogs. And I need to learn what kind of situations are ok, and what means trouble. Plus, learn to know when Charlie is being clumsy, or the other dog unreasonable. So, I'll definitely go back for more classes, plus might book a 121 with just the teaching dogs so I can learn a bit more. One dog was quite reactive, and couldn't be off lead at the same time as Charlie. So we took it in turns to be off lead so I also got a bit of time to work on walking nicely while watching other dogs, play plus work around sheep, horses and chickens.
Re: Communication class Interesting stuff Julie, thanks for the summary. I must admit when reading that I do see certain similarities between Harvey and Charlie so I suspect a good element of the behaviour is down to being a teenager rather than due to Charlie's confinement. PS: Rookie error on the journey - always check the route yourself before leaving
Re: Communication class Yes, I think so - although Charlie is 17 months now, so I would have hoped he'd be a bit further on than he appears. Up to 8 months, he really did seem to be doing very well. But I'm glad that there is nothing to worry about, really, as of course was a bit worried! He didn't do the "going flat" thing (I mean in a slightly alarming way, not a calming way) - but he does this when dogs are meeting head on, usually on a path, and that situation didn't arise today. [quote author=UncleBob link=topic=7532.msg105793#msg105793 date=1409404886] PS: Rookie error on the journey - always check the route yourself before leaving [/quote] I know. You would have thought printing it out on google maps, and annotating the exact route - in three different colours with key - would be enough. But no. : "what do you mean you can't see the map for all the writing on it?" :
Re: Communication class That's really interesting. I wish they were closer I'd be there like a shot. Riley's bad manner on the bum sniffing front is proving frustrating. Do they advocate intervening when your (or anyone's) dog oversteps the mark? Or some other action? At the moment I put him back on his lead and remove him from the poor dog he's still sniffing :-\ And don't get me started on OHs and map reading.....our default position is OH driving, me map reading for very good reason and SatNav has saved several arguments ;D
Re: Communication class Well, the teaching dogs sorted most things out - plus the other dogs there were regulars and pretty good themselves (there were only 3 learners, really, 2 in addition to Charlie). The point is that the dogs learn what is unacceptable from other dogs, so there wasn't any intervening by humans. The intervening by humans was all pre-emptive. So the trainers knew this one dog wasn't going to be ok with Charlie off lead by the way it reacted when Charlie did his lead work around it. So that just didn't happen and the two dogs said hello through the fence, then I had to work on recalling Charlie away from the fence. I'm keen to learn more here, about how to spot in advance what's likely to happen. There was only one moment when another dog was being pushy with Charlie, Charlie was looking uphappy, and a trainer went to intervene - I think she would just have led one dog away for a moment though. She didn't get there, as her teaching dog turned up, and walked between the two of them. Then Charlie and this other dog stood there looking embarrassed - in all the world like two uncomfortable 13 year olds! So the teaching dog (rolling her eyes) went back and invited them to play.
Re: Communication class Riley is pretty similar to Charlie, I think. Charlie got told off for the too long girl bottom sniffing thing - and his telling off was firm and swift, and happened once. So I was content with that. I thought he was safe.
Re: Communication class The 'teaching dogs' sound amazing! Did they mention, are they dogs who were taken on as adults by the human trainers because of their doggy communication skills, or was it luck that the humans ended up with them, or are their doggy skills the result of very skilful socialisation on the part of the human trainers? All tremendously interesting!
Re: Communication class Very interesting. I really like the idea of the teaching dogs - we all should some of those around! I find it all very fascinating! I would love to know how they would assess Simba! He is very much a teenager in behaviour, in some ways, all that mad rush up to other dogs to play. He certainly can be a little over enthusiastic on the bottom sniffing, and at times he can certainly overdo the humping (did they talk about humping at all, Julie?) But at other times he can be the perfect play companion at the park, not aggressive, inviting others to play, not too much of a pest, gentle with the younger pups. So, a mixed bag, really.
Re: Communication class The teaching dogs are both trained - in that they spend hours in these groups - but they have to be the right kind of dog of course. One of the teaching dogs is a rescue dog. But some of the client's dogs that have been going often enough also start acting like the teaching dogs. I guess it's a culture thing. If dogs learn from other adult dogs with great manners and so on, they pass on the skills. I suppose it's so valuable for me, and a one dog household, where I need Charlie to be ok with so very many other dogs in the city, but don't want to rely on those other dogs to teach him (goodness knows what he'd learn). Humping didn't happen today. Acceptable play is quite slow, pretty calm and does not involve putting a paw across another dog's back. I should think that humping would be dealt with in the same way as other unacceptable behaviour - either a teaching dog would intervene, or there'd be a telling off for it.
