Concerns over early neutering and conformation?

So, I rescued my lovely boy, Teller, at 13 months and the shelter had him listed as a mix because he was, "too leggy and slight" to be a full-bred lab and only weighed 45-lbs when we brought him home. We took him to a trainer who also does confirmation and she said he was very puppyish and would fill-out a great deal over the next year. Turns out she was correct. Teller has put on 30-lbs of muscle since we got him and looks a lot more like a lab now but is still rather rangy especially in the back-end. I've read and looked-over the UK, US, and Australian standards for a labrador and his confirmation is pretty lousy, lol. His legs are WAY too straight and his tail set is not level with his top-line. Actually, his body shape is reminiscent of a Chessie and his rear legs appear to be slightly longer than his front. The appearance aspect doesn't matter to me because I already knew he would never make it in the show ring, never mind the fact that we have no proof of pedigree and that he's snipped.

Which brings me to my main point... Teller was adopted twice and returned both times. As I live in the US, most rescues and (especially) shelters will neuter the dog before adopting it out or wait until its old enough to be neutered so they can adopt it out. This leads to a LOT of early neutering and while I understand why they do it, I wish they would consult or move dogs of certain breeds to breed-specific rescues who have more experience. There are an abundance of lab rescues in the US and several local/regional ones. Most of them do not neuter until the dog is at least a year and just include a contract/deposit when they adopt out a dog who is too young to be desexed. Recently I've read a lot of information about early neutering and the risks that accompany it, specifically where retrievers are concerned. I've also researched breeders and a good portion of them will void the health agreement if the puppy is neutered before a certain age. Teller was neutered EXTREMELY early, at just 4 months old. Yes, 4 months old.

I was told by the vet that this early neutering was mostly to blame for Teller's slight build and lanky look. I also read that dogs who are neutered early have double the risk of developing hip dysplasia. While T appears to be extremely athletic and doesn't have any issues, I did notice his body swings a little when he walks and sometimes his gait is almost sideways when trotting. Sometimes when he stands, his feet are positioned oddly. His hocks seem refined, like a Thoroughbred. He hasn't had any stiffness or trouble moving around or jumping (he can leap quite high). I am mainly concerned now because we are beginning his field training and hope to upland hunt him next season. Naturally, I want to avoid any injuries but I am in need of opinions as to whether people with more experience with the breed think his conformation will present a problem.


This is him at 15 months.


Here's him now.


His uneven back paw placement/dainty hocks.

 

I think I agree with your vet. My Gypsy and Twiglet were neutered at six months and grew up very gangly dogs. But no-one yet knows about the health implications.

They were part of a large research project by Guide Dogs - now completed, they are following the dogs life-long. Hopefully they will discover some answers.

...

 

Lilly was spayed at 6 months....my choice....and she is tallish and slim.
And she has severe bilateral HD.
Not blaming it on the neuter but could have been an influence.

 

Snowie is 5 years old and unneutered. He is very stocky with a lot of muscle mass. His hips and elbows were x-rayed a year ago and showed normal signs of wear and tear, no ED or HD.

But... he has a slipped lumbar disc and a malformed lumbar vertebra with spondylosis on a few of his thoracic and lumbar vertebrae (the vet said it is the body's way of stabilising the joints). He also appears to trot and gallop with his back legs kind of on the side of his front legs -- not very elegant at all. His front feet turn out although his back legs have a nice stance. But he drags both back feet (apparently due to the slipped disc) -- it's very slight and only noticeable from his tracks on the beach, you don't notice it normally. He isn't very athletic even though he will never so no to a walk. But while some dogs are racing around, he will trot along at an even pace, or from smell to smell. He raced around like a hooligan until he was about two years old, so either it is age that has slowed him down or his physique (he also gets very hot). He just looks too heavyset to be able to run long distances -- he's more a dog of bursts and then slow for the most part. I can't imagine he'd be able to be a working dog. But then maybe it's because we've never trained him to be one. (He does walk faster than me, though! He trots along, which looks slow, but he does cover a lot more distance than me when I'm walking.)

Anyway, point being he's not neutered and yet developed these problems. Not to say they'd be worse had he been neutered. We kept him intact to protect his joints, and thankfully his elbows and hips are fine. When compared to other labs who are neutered, he appears far more stocky and looks stronger.

 

I can't really comment on how his build will influence how prone he is to injury, but as far as the lopsidedness when walking is concerned, I believe it's quite common in Labs. Again, I couldn't say if it's a "problem" or not, but you're certainly not alone. You're right, he's very straight in the legs, so I would probably be quite cautious about too much jumping and other forms of impact. Again, from a position of complete ignorance, I wouldn't imagine that neutering early would change the angle of his legs, even if it does change the length of bone.

 

I do not think it is possible to tell from a dog's conformation whether or not they will have problems. I think that a dog with straight angulation is more likely to have problems than a dog with better angulation - all other things being equal. The thing is, all other things are not equal. I think all sorts of things will have an impact including how good the underlying joints are formed.

I wouldn't worry about where he puts his feet when he stands, certainly don't worry about his body swinging when he walks (both of my dogs do this, one has much better conformation than the other), a lot of Labradors swing their body sideways when trotting (I heard this is when a dog is short coupled but my younger dog does this and she is not short coupled). His back end could easily do with more muscle, but there is nothing you can do about that but give it time, suitable exercise and a good diet with enough protein.

I wouldn't neuter a dog early - I don't think it's necessary, and I just don't think it seems like a sensible thing to do. But no-one knows for sure whether it causes problems.

 

By the way, his rear angulation doesn't look terrible. I've seen much worse. In one of your pictures his rear leg looks very straight, but the appearance of the angle does change massively depending on how they are standing.

 

You could have his hips and elbows evaluated, same as breeders do with their dogs (well they SHOULD) and see if he is badly out of alignment and go from there.

It's explained in this link, which gives research links:

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/spay-neuter-and-joint-disease/

 

Thanks so much for all of the replies! I had just read that dogs tend to swing their bodies with HD so I was a bit worried when I saw him doing this. Also when I am behind him, his back looks to curve? But I think a lot of that has to do with his tail-set being low.

@snowbunny and @JulieT - It's sort of weird with him, lol. Sometimes his legs are super straight and other times he almost looks to have proper angulation.



Yeah, he's a bit front heavy haha. His back half just isn't as muscular as his chest and front legs. Is there anything I can do to strengthen up his rear? Like I said, he is a very athletic dog and will scrabble over rocks, through brambles, up steep banks, etc. when he's after a bird.

As for the neutering, I understand why they do it but I don't necessarily agree with it. In the states it's very rare to see an intact dogs and a lot of people seriously frown upon it. There is heavy pressure on shelters to neuter all of the animals they take in because of the problem with overpopulation and also because of unsavory people who look to steal/adopt dogs for breeding. I will not neuter my next lab until at least 18 months old.

 

My boy had cruciate repairs, and I decided that he couldn't have enough muscle on his rear, good muscle helps everything. And after each operation we had muscle wastage (we kept this to an absolute minimum, and he did much better than a lot of dogs, but he did have muscle wastage).

Feed a good diet with enough protein.

Masses of racing around freely doesn't really build a lot of muscle bulk. Stay away from all nonsense about having your dog carry weights and stuff like that. It really is nonsense and if you are concerned about joints is probably the very worst thing you could do (IMHO).

There are specific exercises, but you really need a canine physiotherapist for these - I've done them with my boy, but I wouldn't give instructions for them over the internet. I needed coaching to get my dog to do these.

One of the best exercises is walking in a water treadmill - if such a thing is available to you! But again, I'd only do this with professional help.

One thing that you can do safely is have your dog walk - not trot - steadily uphill. Your lead walking needs to be good for this, and you need to be reasonably fit yourself and maintain a pace that has your dog in a steady natural walk (not pacing). To be honest, this is really hard work to do this enough to make a difference.

This is my boy now (he's the grown up one ). Without the cruciate repairs his rear end muscles would undoubtably be much better, but they are not at all bad given the circumstances.

L16A5544 by julieandcharlie julieandcharlie, on Flickr

 

With a butt like that, he can't really call Betsy the Fat Bottomed Girl, can he? What a spectacular bum you have, Señor Carlos!

 

He thanks you - but says Betsy would no way fit into his jeans!

 

@JulieT - I am fit but I have a bad knee so walking uphill is not the best solution. I will look into the water treadmill. I live in a fairly populous area so it shouldn't be too hard to find someone who does hydrotherapy.

On another note, your boy is so handsome and has beautiful confirmation! He looks like an ideal lab. It's very rare to see that here. Every lab I've seen is either massively obese and can at most trot along or more gangly than Teller with a snipey muzzle and hound-y ears to boot. We also have giant labs. Teller is too tall for your standard and at the far end of our standard (24" at the withers), but we've seen dogs that dwarf him.

 

Thank you so very much, @Teller's mom - that is very kind of you and of course I love him to bits. He is handsome, and he is fast for a show Labrador, but his conformation isn't tip top. His angulation at both front and back is a bit too straight (a little disguised by the amount of muscle he has) and his back is too long. He is slim though, and I personally think his head is perfection. I do think he is absolutely the ideal size for a Labrador.

 

@JulieT - I love looking at the pictures of old CHs and FCs, there is such a huge difference between the past and now (probably why we haven't had a DualCH in such a long while). A lot of them are much straighter in the limbs than show dogs now. I've noticed American breeders of show-lines frown upon working-type labradors and prefer their dogs as stocky and cumbersome as possible. Your little yellow fellow is quite handsome as well and has beautiful paws. I used to think T's paws were incorrect until I looked through the Australian standard and realized that a lot of the labs I've seen have splayed paws.

 

Yes, some are. But the past is not always the best measure - and why should it be? Lots of things in the past were, quite frankly, rubbish. They probably just shot the dogs when they went lame (that might still happen today though). You can find FTChs in the UK with elbows scores of 2 - they only have to do 6 retrieves or so to win a Field Trial. If you look to nature, which is a much better measure, nature provides good angulation. The faster the animal, the straighter the front tends to be - but even giraffes have decent front angulation compared to some working line Labradors.

Well, I'm not a fan of houndy Labradors (in general, I mean, lovely dogs are lovely dogs and come in all shapes and sizes - once a dog is in this world, it deserves love and the best care no matter what it looks like).

I am shocked and horrified by some of the US show champions though. And sometimes a bit shocked by some UK show champions.

I don't think that's right. The Australian standard does not call for splayed paws. Although the standard requiring round paws is probably the one aspect that is for aesthetics, and probably not about performance - although I'm not entirely sure about that.

 

@JulieT - I'm not a fan of houndy labs, I see a lot of them with overlarge ears and tiny heads. I've met quite a few and they were just as friendly and lovable as any other lab. We also have a lot of breeding for color here: chocolate, 'white,' 'silver,' and to a lesser extent 'fox red'. 'White' and 'silver' labs have become particularly popular with lots of people saying, "Oh yes, this is my new white English lab puppy!" I observed an argument over whether this one lady's 'white' lab was actually technically a shade of yellow (she insisted it wasn't), lol.

I've looked at the Crufts labs and some are overdone but the Westminster labs?! Have you seen them? I understand a lot of the bulk is from the thick coat show-lines have, but that isn't all coat lol. The American standard lists weights for dogs and bitches and if Teller weighs 75-lbs (the 'weight' is 65-80-lbs) there is no way on earth some of those dogs in that ring weigh in at less than 85 or 90.

I should have clarified! I meant that the Australian standard has very nice drawings of lab paws and from that I was able to discern that a good abundance of labs I've encountered have splayed feet (though I don't know if the extra weight they were carrying factored in). I initially thought T's paws were wrong because his toes appeared to be too arched and his foot too compact, but according to the Aussie standard his feet are correct.

 

Yes, I've seen them. Well, I've seen pictures of them. With the best will in the world, with the most sympathetic view of the show line Labrador possible - they look awful, dreadful. Both my show line dogs are well below the US weight range specified. On paper - although I don't know what happens in real life perhaps as you say the upper (and the lower?) weight range is disregarded - both would be eliminated in the US for being too light.

 

The really sad part is that most of American breeders on other forums find nothing wrong with these dogs and have a big problem with the more moderate show/field-bred labs. I've seen this in action and I'm sure they mean well and love the breed but it's pretty obvious a lot of labs in American show rings wouldn't do so well in the field. I've seen really overdone dogs that more resemble mastiffs or rotties than labs. Some breeders DO hunt with these show-lines but it is not very common from what I've seen. It's fairly easy to obtain a JH title with the AKC (I've seen the tests and plan to get T a JH title) if the dogs have any retrieving instinct, so I don't understand why you wouldn't at least do that for exercise and to prove your labs can do what they were bred for, especially if you are selling the pups for a hefty price. Realistically most of these breeders do not allow buyers to show the dogs (except in rare circumstances, if at all) so what's the point of buying a dog with beautiful confirmation if you are unable to do anything with it?

Out of curiosity how much do your two weigh? 65 to 75-lbs is fairly average for a working-line retriever, however Teller is one of the lightest boys I have personally met. Most of the labs around me are 80 to 110-lbs and 120 isn't unheard of.

 

Can I just share a Portuguese Show Champion to add to the discussion? Because.... well...