Hi I'm feeling pretty desperate because my nearly eight month old pup Boris seems to have underlying ligament issues. He suddenly went lame sixteen days ago. When he was no better after two days rest a vet thought it was a minor strain. Difficult to examine a bouncy pup who has been waiting for an hour with lots if other dogs. She thought it was his right hind knee, if anything, and prescribed anti inflammatories and short lead walks only. Ii din't give him the anti inflammatories as he wasn't distressed and I thought if it hurt it would stop him bouncing on it. A week later he seemed to have no limp so let him off lead somewhere I thought would be very quiet and a lurcher with the zoomies appeared out of nowhere ready to play. Needless to say he was limping again when I got him back. Consulted another vet at the practice who convinced me to start the anti inflammatories but said I should be taking him jogging to build up his strength. Against my better judgement, I did a few times and the limp got worse. Last week I tool him to a canine physio who spent an hour with him and said although the law doesn't let him diagnose, he had stiff back legs and a creak in both of them and thought the most likely issue was with cruciate ligaments - and the right one was probably injured. He's recommended about three months rest and hydrotherapy, with some sit stand and cavaletti exercises at home to build up his strength and flexibility. We're also limited to two ten minute lead walks a day. I'm feeling really overwhelmed as a first time dog owner with a lively pup who has just hit the bolshy teenage stage. I feel all my hard work with recall training and socialization will now be wasted and he will regress badly.He's put up with the lack of exercise quite well but I can't even let him in the front room now because he was bouncing on sofas and I've somehow got to stop all jumping and bouncing. I don't like to push him down from counter surfing and don't know how to make any improvements with his lead walking. Doing my best with brain training but it's not much of a life all round as I can't leave him alone anywhere but his crate as he'll start jumping. He's also regressed the last few days with house training. Never had an accident since he was tiny and now reluctant to go outside if its cold, dark or wet and pooed and weed inside twice. I don't have much faith in the vets and am wondering if they will insist on MRIs and surgeries as an inevitable next step - although a lot of the literature suggests they are not a permanent fix. The phsyio was upbeat that his symptoms are not severe and that we can make a real improvement - and that he will eventually be able to run off lead - but I feel so out of my depth as to how to care for him over the next few months, especially with very ill parents. a job change and a relocation possibly on the horizon. Couldn't even rehome him now this has happened as who would take on the care required and know how to train a dog in his situation. Any, any words of wisdom would be appreciated.
Hi @Cressida Thomson I'm very sorry to hear about your issues. All your hardwork on socialisation will not be undone. The heeling might a little but it will not take too much to get back to where you were a fortnight ago. I assume the physio is correct. So we need calm exercises. I would try scent training. Dogs love it. It's very calming. I would teach a passive sit for the indication.i presume sitting is okay. Ask physio for advice. It will take about two months to do all the training. That will cover most of you prescribed inactive period. I would get a trainer to come to your house to explain how to do it. If you can't find someone let me know and I'll try to think of a way of explaining how to do the training. It's an activity that is easier to learn from observation,, at least in teaching an association with the target scent. I would put your dog on a lead, take him to the same spot in the garden and teach him the cues for wee and poo. You are going to use capturing as the teaching method. Hang in there. Your physio is optimistic.
Thank you so much Michael. Yep = I've got to focus on the positive and look on it s a chance to train him in other ways. I've found a very good link on brain training exercises especially for injured dogs - but it would be great if you could recommend something online on calm scene training.
Hi @Cressida Thomson I don't know of any good on-line material--most of it assumes you already know how to do scent detection. Others require you to buy their special scent boxes, but it's an unnecessary expense. I will write some notes. In the interim, you need to buy 6 identical plastic containers, for size, think of 15 cm x 15 cm and 10 cm deep or thereabouts. The plastic material must be such that you can't see what will be placed in the container. Drill three holes in the lids. Make sure the holes are all placed in identical positions for each and every lid. Later on, you will rely on the dog to locate which box has the target scent. In order to do that, the boxes must be indistinguishable, and later on in the training you will need an assistant so that you don't know which box has the target scent. I taught my 8 year-old Lab to detect Earl Grey tea. I bought a large box of Earl Grey tea bags. You can teach your dog to find any scent, but tea bags are cheap and Earl Grey tea has a very distinctive note. While you amass your equipment, I'll write up some notes. It will take me a few days. If you like you can work on teaching cues for defectation and urination. I'm also assuming you have taught your dog a conditioned reinforcer (CR) such as the word yes. A clicker is fine too, but I dislike having to juggle treats, a lead and a clicker. So I will keep referring to yes + treat = CR.
That is very kind Michael. THis morning I taught him left and right and to stick his tongue out and to give me his chin on cue. I do have a clicker but I find it cumbersome and it excites him, so as I don't want him jumping I'm saving it for leave it exercises at the moment. I use "good" as a marker, but maybe I overuse it so should change to yes. Hoping the house training relapse was a one off. Not sure how to teach him to perform on cue but I have gone back to praising him for asking to go and for going on his little lead walks. Off to out first hydrotherapy session tomorrow and feeling a bit more philosophical. Cressid
Hi @Cressida Thomson You have a bit of preliminary work to do. But that is good for building the bond with your dog. The following is going to be of use to all your dog training. Good is normally considered to be praise, it is not a marker unless you teach it as such. For many dogs the word 'good' is not worth much. If your boss only paid you in Good, would you stay working there? We need a higher value reward to reinforce the behaviour we desire. Think of cheese, meat, sausage, carrot, apple, whatever the dog really likes. Cut the treats into bits the size of your small fingernail. You'll will need lots of them. If the treats are too big then you will satiate him too quickly, and not get in enough repetitions. Install a Conditioned Reinforcer Get a handful of the treats. Say "yes" and then give a treat. Say yes then give treat, repeat and repeat, doing it about 10 times. The dog does not have to do anything to get the treat. You are teaching the dog that when he hears the word yes, then a treat will follow. Repeat at another training session. At the next training session when he is looking away from you, determine whether he turns his head around to look at you, expecting a treat if you say the word Yes. If he does do so you know you have installed the marker word Yes. Keep up the sessions until your dog knows what follows when he hears the word yes. Why do you need the marker word? It is designed to tell the dog, that you like what he is doing at that very moment. The word yes is not a reward. It signals to the dog that a treat is coming. At the beginning make sure the treat follows within a half of a second of you saying the word yes. It will be useful to buy a treat pouch. Once you have installed the conditioned reinforcer word Yes, then each and every time your dog does any behaviour you wish to reinforce, say Yes and give a treat. I carry around kibble in my pocket for just such training. And wear a well stocked treat pouch when training. Capturing Have the dog on lead when you go to the spot in the garden. When your dog just starts to urinate, say the word Wee once and once only (you can use any word you like but you have to be consistent). After he finishes, say Yes and give a food treat. Rinse and repeat. That is, each and every time he urinates you attach the cue Wee then say yes and treat. In time try to get the cue in a split second before he starts to urinate.Study his body language. Try to predict when he will urinate. The dog needs to build up an association between the word and the desired behaviour. Make sure you give food treats. Praise is insufficient, I suspect. Do the same training with defecation. I suggest you use the word, say, poo. Don't expect the capturing to work immediately. It will take time for the dog to understand the words you are using are attached to certain behaviours. When you say the word Wee and he urinates in response to your cue, then you know you have captured the behaviour. Why do you want to put such behaviour under cue? It will help with your toilet training. Before I go to a training class, I tell my dog to wee. I then know she doesn't need to empty her bladder during the journey to the class. More importantly, it will help to give you the timing and skill to capture other desired behaviours. You can teach for example shake when he gets out of the hydro bath by capturing his normal response to shake the water out of his coat.
Hello, if, and I say only if it is the CCL and if you already have a partial tear I would start to mentally prepare and educate myself on that specific kind of injury and how to repair the issue. If it is CCL there is a very high chance that one if not both will eventually tear completely. Once this happens he will go lame in that leg and there is no way to prevent or repair torn CCL or meniscus. There are several good options which offer surgical repair for the joint which offer high success rates that your pup will be able to run and play at 95% or greater like before. This is common in Labs and like I said, if this is the issue I would start to prepare. On the plus. Normal activity resumes after surgery. Down sides, potential for both to tear due to genetics and a long rehabilitation. Wishing you the best. I’ve been through two complete tears of the CCL the second on the last day of the ones first recovery.
Is there a reason why you don't want an MRI or even x-rays and an official diagnosis? The thing is: It is so hard to treat something if no one really knows what it is, it is like throwing all kinds of stuff at it and hoping something will stick - and meanwhile, even if something does work, you don't know why exactly and many other things tried, don't work and are a waste of money... We went through all of this with our Weim, who had pain in her neck area. We saw two chiropractors, our regular vet, and had her on Metacam... Sometimes things seemed better, sometimes worse. The same thing had happened a couple years before and it seemed that hydrotherapy had helped then - but this time the pain was too much for her to do that comfortably. Eventually, after things getting better and then worse, she deteriorated quite suddenly to the point where it was either get a diagnosis with an MRI and then look at treatment - or PTS. We opted for the former, took her to Fitzpatricks for an MRI and found she had an extruded disc in her neck - and most of the stuff we'd been trying hadn't been helping and may well (ie chiro) have been making things worse through sudden manipulations. She had spinal surgery at Fitzpatricks which was an easy and routine surgery for them, and she made a full recovery. Another lab owner I know, has also gone through the chiro-hydro-anti-inflammatory etc etc route and finally gotten an MRI, only to learn it is also a disc issue and had to retire the dog to a pet home (she was a competition dog). Because she chose not to opt for the surgery. So: When it comes to bones and joints, it really is best to get a diagnosis and to know what you are dealing with - especially if the problem is intermittent or long-lasting. However, with the recommendation that you take your dog jogging, I'm not convinced your current vets know what they're talking about (frankly!), and would suggest you get a referral to a specialist who can run the MRI or x-rays and at least make a diagnosis. If you have pet insurance, you may need prior approval for the MRI. Once you have a diagnosis, then you can make a decision about courses of treatment etc etc and will have much more information.
Thank you everyone for your input. It is a worrying time. Can anyone recommend a good orthopedic vet in the north east? Cressida Thomson
Cressida, I can't help you with that one - but you might want to ask on Champdogs forum in the Health forum there, as this won't be a lab-specific question you have so it can't hurt to cast the net a bit wider: https://forum.champdogs.co.uk
