So Charlie has snapped his cruciate ligament. It is not at all clear how he managed to do this, or why it wasn’t evident to the vets at first (although it was evident to the physiotherapist). Best guess is that he damaged it at first, and then at some point it snapped – maybe during a hooligan moment, despite our best efforts to keep him quiet. It does seem that at the last exam, before the physio saw him, the ligament was completely broken and the vet (one of three in the practice and not the one now looking after Charlie) just missed it. Which I think is a bit rubbish. Why this happened at all, we don’t know. We might just have got unlucky, and he put his foot down a hole or something like that. Or, it might be genetic. If a dog damages one leg, they are very much more likely to damage the second – my vet tells me that it is not known for sure for Labradors, although is known for other breeds, whether there is a strong genetic link or the likelihood of damaging the second leg is because of mismanagement of the return to exercise. There is a test that can be done on the ligament (sample taken during surgery) to see whether it was suffering from a slow degeneration, or appears healthy but just broken from a trauma. Surgery is a must – in smaller, lighter dogs, it may be possible to avoid surgery, but not in bigger breeds. The outlook is reasonable, 85% - 90% of dogs return to full fitness and even working dogs can recover to resume working. The other 10% - 15% suffer arthritis or from infections. There are two main options for surgery, and variations on these. The first is a Tibial Tuberosity Advancement (TTA), and the second Tibial-Plateau-Leveling Osteotomy (TPLO). My local vet carries out TTAs. It is hard to find a specialist who is equally experienced in TTAs and TPLOs. So I’m going to see two specialists, one in TTA and one in TPLOs. On Monday and Tuesday next week. Then, I will decide the type of operation that might be suitable. TPLO involves a more drastic cutting of the bone – but bones heal quite quickly in a young, healthy dog. So we’ll see once I’ve understood all the pros and cons. The other decision is the timing of the operation. Charlie’s growth plates are still open, but likely to close in the next 4 to 6 weeks – according to my local vet and his view of the x-rays. It may be best to wait until Charlie’s growth plates have closed. Set against this is the need to keep him quiet and off hooligan antics in the meantime. Plus, the maker of the TTA devices says that the device to stabilise the joint spans the growth plate gap and so adds strength in that area. So this is a key area to discuss with the specialists next week. Finally, I have to decide where to have the operation done, and who does it. It’s tempting to choose the specialists to do the operation rather than my local vet (who has done 38 TTAs), but the specialists are far away, and it might be better to have Charlie close to home with a vet who is just round the corner should there be complications. Right now, Charlie is on 3 or 4 15 minute lead walks a day and apart from that he is confined to his pen or small rooms. It not at all easy to keep him completely quiet he can jump on the spot or run tight circles around even a small room. All training is limited – he cannot do the repetitive up and down for most clicker training exercises for example. Once Charlie has had the operation, then the recovery time to full exercise is about 3 months or more – but hydrotherapy can start after a month or so.
Re: cruciate ligament Oh Julie what a tough time you are having. It does sound as if Charlie will make a good recovery but you are going to have a difficult few months before the op and during the recovery period. Thank goodness the physiotherapist picked up the problem before more damage was done. Have you written down a list for the specialist so you re not going over and over the same concerns. Thinking of you and Charlie. Alice
Re: cruciate ligament Good luck with your decisions it sounds like you've investigated all the possibilities. We'll be waiting with some dummies when it's all over x
Re: cruciate ligament I wish you and Charlie all the luck in the world. Sending hugs to you {{}}} Hattie & Charlie send lots of licks to Choc Charlie, oh and Hattie said she will share MY chocolate with Charlie Keep your spirits up Julie xx
Re: cruciate ligament All the very best with your decision Julie , at least it will be a very well informed one , thoughts with you .
Re: cruciate ligament Ah Julie, that's a job of work ahead of you. But you are the girl for a challenge - and you have a fit, healthy, young dog, who I am certain will be back to full bouncing health by the spring. Xx
Re: cruciate ligament Well, lots of challenges ahead to be sure. At least you know what the problem is, and will soon have a plan of treatment. One step at a time, one day at a time, and you'll get through it. Seems a long mountain to climb at the moment, I am sure. So frustrating and difficult for you....sending hugs and licks from Lisa and Simba....
Re: cruciate ligament Thanks for such a detailed picture of the problem, Julie. Really appreciate you taking the time to write that. Sounds like you have gathered lots of great info, with more to come from your visit to the specialists. Information is power, as they say. I've discussed cruciates with my vet too, when Obi had a limp and x-rays (the vet checked his cruciates while he was under for the x-ray). He said that it's very rare for a young Lab to do a cruciate. So you have been very unlucky
Re: cruciate ligament I don't know whether this might make you feel a little heartened. http://www.stauntonvalegundogs.co.uk/bea.html What an awful thing to go through for you. He must be wound up tighter than a drum. We did only one week and the amount of pent up energy was quite unreal. Hopefully swimming would really help with his energy levels post surgery. sarah
Re: cruciate ligament You will make the right decision for Charlie and yourselves. Your research will help greatly. It helps to know all the facts as these days there are always decisions to make, not simply he vets making the decision. Charlie is lucky to have you
Re: cruciate ligament [quote author=drjs@5 link=topic=3657.msg41169#msg41169 date=1386972766] Charlie is lucky to have you [/quote] Well said Jacqui ;D and absolutely true.Charlie is going to get the best care both pre and post op and he will come through it ,but it's going to take it out of you Julie so take good care of yourself. We had quite an intense month October trying to stop a recovering dog injure himself further so I've had a little taste of what you will face. I know there are other forum members who have had to manage a post op recovery too so I hope that gives you strength that it can and will be done successfully. Your down time is going to be during the worst part of the year,January is a horrible month...by the time spring comes Charlie will be back to full health and fitness and you can resume all the activities that you enjoy with him.... Oh I wish I was clever enough to say something to make you feel better Julie,but I'm not so just know I think this is absolutely rubbish for you and I hate that it's happened xxx ( I had a little smile at your stat analysis of how many operations the vet had performed,that is so you!Charlie has nothing to fear at all with you in charge of his care ;D x)
Re: cruciate ligament My thoughts are with you. Charlie is lucky to have you as you are a very caring person. I'm sure he will recover quickly no matter what you decide. Harley sends big licks to Charlie x
Re: cruciate ligament Thanks all, appreciate the good wishes. We’re slowly adjusting, including Charlie. Here he is, spaced out on his new higher dose of Tramadol insisting on his morning ration of tummy rubs (lifted in and out of the armchair of course). spaced out pup by JulieTandCharlie, on Flickr We have made several mistakes, which we won’t have to make once he has had his operation. They have included him jumping on the sofa even though he was on a lead being led between pens, him jumping over his lower pen gate while we were opening his pen to get in, and having a bum rum round the kitchen (thankfully on new non slip mats) when we forgot to tie his pen doors up – he has now perfected the “tongue lick to flip the latch” escape method and can do it in 2 seconds flat. We now have a strict “on a lead or in a pen” rule, but I do fear more mistakes. I have ordered a large crate, and as soon as it arrives I’ll start training him to relax in that – with his armchairs removed from his pen, the crate can go inside his pen and still leave plenty of room. He is none too happy about the return of his old puppy pen to the front room and isn’t settling in it at all, plus I’m worried he’ll try to jump out in frustration (his main pen is much taller than this old puppy pen). return of puppy pen by JulieTandCharlie, on Flickr We’ve also found some non-slip flooring that’s designed for martial arts sports – you can throw people onto it safely from quite a height – and it comes in 0.5m tiles that fit together like a jigsaw. It was surprisingly cost effective. http://www.softfloor.co.uk/. So Charlie’s main pen will be fitted out with this when it arrives. We might do the whole kitchen and hall in it if it works well. I’m saying goodbye to my wooden floorboards, and they are being carpeted. I think I’m taking doggy interior design to a whole new level here… Ramps (with battons and non-slip) are being fitted in the garden, and a car ramp arrived today (jumping into rather than out of the car is the problem, and Charlie is used to taking a flying leap from six feet away from the back of the car…) so that will need some working on. My main worries (apart from making sure I make all the right decisions about treatment) are making sure Charlie doesn’t hurt himself further either before or after the operation, and obviously the lack of training and stopping most of his continuing socialisation. All I can do is make the most of the lead walks he is allowed to have, and make what progress I can, and continue to take him out and about to as many places as possible.
Re: cruciate ligament You've given him such a good foundation in obedience and socialisation it will be ok x
Re: cruciate ligament I ve only just seen this Julie. I'm so sorry. Poor Charlie. My friends dog had both his cruciates done and made a very good recovery you wouldn't know. They were missed by the vet originally aswell. I guess they don't show up on x ray ! Fingers crossed all goes well give him a big cuddle Jen
Re: cruciate ligament Love the pic of him spaced and having tummy rubs, soooooo adorable. Keep your spirits up. You are so caring, I know Charlie adores you x
Re: cruciate ligament [quote author=Jen link=topic=3657.msg41241#msg41241 date=1387025680] My friends dog had both his cruciates done and made a very good recovery you wouldn't know. They were missed by the vet originally aswell. I guess they don't show up on x ray ! [/quote] Ligament damage doesn't show up clearly on x-rays, no - now with hindsight though, indications of ligament damage can be seen on the x-rays when we look for it (there is an indication of fluid and swelling that can be seen). The hips dysplasia thing was such a red herring. Charlie is very relaxed when being examined, and both the physio and the vet with orthopedic experience could see that the bones of his knee had forward and backwards movement, although some dogs will hold their muscles so tight this can't be seen without a GA.
Re: cruciate ligament Oh Julie, your beautiful floors!! Boy, it's tricky, isn't it!! We gave them pain killers to make them comfortable but then they don't remember they are injured and so run the risk of re-injury by behaving like they are not injured.... Hopefully your new pen will arrive soon. I can't believe he hasn't tried to jump out of that one (speaking as one whose dog jumped over a 5' fence... :)! Hopefully the op can be done sooner rather than later, so that the road to recovery can start!! Try not to beat yourself up about "mistakes" here and there. You are doing the very best you can, but there will always be something that will mess up here and there. Can't be helped! But I am a little worried....I see clear signs from that picture that Charlie is suffering....NOT!!!!!! ;D Try to keep your chin up. You and Charlie will get through this!!
Re: cruciate ligament I think we're doing ok, overall. Planning and working out how we're going to get through it makes me feel better. Won't stop me wishing the next few months away, but it'll be fine. If Lynette can get through what she has to cope with...I can deal with this. [quote author=Lisa link=topic=3657.msg41259#msg41259 date=1387035080] Boy, it's tricky, isn't it!! We gave them pain killers to make them comfortable but then they don't remember they are injured and so run the risk of re-injury by behaving like they are not injured.... [/quote] This is really, really tricky, yes, and wasn't an easy decision. In the end, we decided on a reasonably high level of pain relief. Because Charlie is such an excitable dog, he gets these rushes of, probably, adrenaline, which means he is silly anyway pain relief or not. The other thing is that a dog without pain relief can start to have behaviour problems. So weighing all that up, management and confinement is the answer really, so he might as well have painkillers. The vet judges he is in some, but not a lot, of pain when he is standing and it should still hurt to jump around. [quote author=Lisa link=topic=3657.msg41259#msg41259 date=1387035080] Oh Julie, your beautiful floors!! [/quote] The house is bloomin' freezing anyway, in the areas without carpet. I'm looking on the bright side...
