Dilute/Dudley alopecia question

Discussion in 'Labrador Breeding & Genetics' started by amberngwin, Apr 26, 2018.

  1. amberngwin

    amberngwin Registered Users

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    Hey all, I have been a lurker here for years following threads and enjoying reading so much on this forum. I have recently lost my amazing female, English chocolate lab. She was the most beautiful kind dog anyone ever could meet. I got her from a very reliable local breeder but she had a ton of health issues as she aged mostly stemming from exercise induced collapse, stomach flip issues, some nerve issues, but she did have excellent hips/elbows, so no issues there. I reached back out to her breeder and her pup prices are straight up astronomical now. Over 2k for pet quality. Anyway, I guess the point is, friends of ours also breed pet quality Labradors and they are extremely healthy with very loving personalities, but they are dilutes. They are sold as registered chocolates with all the typical health guarantees also. My specific question is does anyone know about dilutes and alopecia? Her dilute chocolate female throws yellows which is what I want – but are these dilute yellows or just Dudley’s? Can dudley's also get alopecia? Is there a way to know if your pup will have alopecia? I passed on this past spring litter because the timing wasn’t right for my family but if anyone has any input I would greatly appreciate it.

    one of the pups, the whole litter was absolutely beautiful, happy, friendly and fat little pups. her eyes were very blue.
    [​IMG]


    my beautiful girl Lady.
    [​IMG]
     
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  2. snowbunny

    snowbunny Registered Users

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    It depends on the genes of the parents as to what is passed on to the puppy. The dilute gene is recessive, so to guarantee that all puppies are dilutes, both parents would have to have two dilute genes (ie both be dilute themselves). If this is the case, all puppies will be dilute. Here's a quick summary:

    D = "not dilute" gene
    d = "dilute" gene

    Parent 1: dd (dilute)
    Parent 2: dd (dilute)

    100% puppies will be dd (dilute)

    Parent 1: dd (dilute)
    Parent 2: dD (not dilute, but carrying one dilution gene which may be passed on to offspring)

    50% puppies will be dd (dilute)
    50% puppies will be dD (not dilute, but carrying one dilution gene which may be passed on to offspring)

    Parent 1: dd (dilute)
    Parent 2: DD (not dilute)

    100% puppies will be dD (not dilute, but carrying one dilution gene which may be passed on to offspring)

    Parent 1: dD (not dilute, but carrying one dilution gene which may be passed on to offspring)
    Parent 2: dD (not dilute, but carrying one dilution gene which may be passed on to offspring)

    25% puppies will be dd (dilute)
    25% puppies will be DD (not dilute)
    50% puppies will be dD (not dilute, but carrying one dilution gene which may be passed on to offspring)

    Parent 1: DD (not dilute)
    Parent 2: DD (not dilute)

    100% puppies will be DD (not dilute)

    So, if you know that both parents are dilute, you know that all puppies will be dilute because they must both be carrying two dilute genes in order to be dilute themselves.

    The question of whether the pups are "just dudleys" is separate to the dilution question.

    A dudley Labrador appears when the yellow is carrying liver genes and no black genes. You get dudleys when you mate a chocolate with a yellow that carries chocolate. The chart on this page is quite handy: https://www.vetgen.com/chromagene-coat-color-a.html
    A dudley has the colour gene combination bbee. Because dudleys are considered undesirable for the show ring, many people avoid mating dogs that can throw this combination. However, if you're in the business of breeding dilutes, you're obviously not interested in the show ring anyway, so that won't be influencing their mating decisions here.

    Hopefully this is clear enough - the genes that control dilution are "D" and "d", the genes that control the colour of the coat are "B", "b", "E" and "e". So, different genes. You can have a dilute dudley (bbeedd) and a non-dilute dudley (bbeeDD or bbeedD). You can have a dilute non-dudley yellow (eg BBeedd) and a non-dilute non-dudley yellow (eg BBeeDD).

    If they are chocolate, they will not be dudleys (because a dudley is specifically a yellow without the black gene), but they will also not be the colouring of the one in your photo - unless they are being mis-labelled on registration. A dilute chocolate is a silver colour like a Weimaraner colour and will have a bbEE or bbEe colour gene combination. The puppy in your picture is not a silver. If it is dilute, which can be hard to tell with the yellows, then it will be considered "champagne" and should be registered yellow. Here is an article about silver Labradors (that is, chocolate Labs with the dilution gene) which includes pictures of what these look like. https://www.thelabradorsite.com/silver-labradors/
    As you can see, a very different colour to the one in your picture. That one should definitely not be registered as chocolate and, if it has been, then I would be questioning what the breeder is doing.

    As for your alopecia question, I'm afraid I can't help as I have no experience of that.
     
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  3. edzbird

    edzbird Registered Users

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    Sorry for your loss, Lady looks lovely with her flowers in your photo.
     
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  4. Ski-Patroller

    Ski-Patroller Cooper, Terminally Cute

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    I'm a little surprised at the prices in Maryland. Out here, I mostly looked at Field Dogs, but $1200-1500 would buy a pup from parents with Hunting or Field titles.
     
  5. amberngwin

    amberngwin Registered Users

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    Thank you for such a detailed response. Looks like they are all dilutes then since both parents were dilute silvers. I misspoke when I said they were being registered as chocolates, they silver pups are being registered as chocolates, the two "yellows" were being registered as yellow.

    Thanks for making the dudley info more clear. ultimately the only real thing I am worried about is the alopecia health concern. Thanks again
     
  6. amberngwin

    amberngwin Registered Users

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    we can get pet quality "americans" or mixed english Americans for around $800-$1000, but these dogs are huge - over 100lbs sometimes. The English pet quality is more expensive around here. I just love the english look, and the sizing of the english that I am used to is approximately 60lb for females.
     
  7. Karen

    Karen Registered Users

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    Hi there, Lady looks like a beautiful dog. You can see she was much loved.

    The pup looks gorgeous too, but I'm a more than a little wary of breeders who breed mainly for coloring... Health and temperament should be the main factors in a serious breeding program, as far as I am concerned.

    What is your specific concern with alopecia? I'm just wondering why you are so worried about it, as I don think it is very common in labs?
     
  8. Snowshoe

    Snowshoe Registered Users

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    You can find this out by googling. I did, just for curiosity a few years ago. I found alopecia is not common, perhaps not even known in Labs. That is strange as the dilute gene is supposed to have been introduced by a breeder in the U.S. crossing Weims with Labs, whether on purpose or not is not sure. Alopecia is a concern in Weims. I did not book mark this information but I'm sure you can put the key words in and find it.

    Alopecia is a terrible disease. If you think a litter might be prone to it I'd sure step away.
     
  9. amberngwin

    amberngwin Registered Users

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    apparently it's pretty common in dilutes, not all labs.
     
  10. amberngwin

    amberngwin Registered Users

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    I have only met 5 or 6 dilute labs in my time and 2 had alopecia, and in one case it was really terrible. My mothers bull dog also has alopecia and its just such a pain for the poor dog. We live an active outdoor lifestyle (perfect for a lab) I would just love to avoid any heath flags and wondered if you could tell from the parents if the pups could be susceptible. The two parents of this litter did not look to have any coat issues, but I can't really find a lot of information on the topic online, like what age it would start to appear and if it could be a recessive trait. Thank you so much for responding. :)
     
  11. amberngwin

    amberngwin Registered Users

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    Here is an image from one of the silver labs, you can see she really only has a mowhawk of fur. Her sides and felt like a pigs skin with very sparse hair. I also read you have to be very careful of sunburns.

    Edited to add: this lab has no relation to the pups in the litter, not even owned by the same family - totally no relation.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. snowbunny

    snowbunny Registered Users

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    The genetics of alopecia aren’t straightforward and so there will be no test for whether it may or may not be passed on to puppies. If you have concerns about it being common in dilutes, I’d just avoid getting a dilute. There are plenty of non-dilute Labs available :)
    I would add my voice to the concerns about breeding purely for colour. I assume all other health checks have been carried out and have good results, as well as both parents bring of sound temperament and conformation?
     
  13. Deboragh

    Deboragh Registered Users

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