Dog training

We have a 3 1/2 yr old male lab (unneutred). We have had him for a year and about 1 month ago we got totally fed up with the pulling on the leash and endless stops to mark terroritory. We are currently seeing a dog trainer and have had 3 sessions. 1st change was a slip lead and walk to heal. 6 weeks in and although a marked improvement it seems that the quality of walk totally depends on what dogs have been out beforehand us and what scents he picks up. Sometimes he can be be almost perfect to heel and other walks he constantly tries to get ahead or constantly tries to dart off to the hedge. We are finding this very difficult and wanted some advice. Will he eventually get fed up being pulled about to get to the hedge or will he fall into line.....at the moment we just can't see any signs of him giving up.
Also when, we take him tot the beach or somewhere new (new smells) as soon as he gets out the car he is hyper and the training goes out the window as his adrenaline and excitement is too much for him and pulls us all over the place initially. HELP

 

Hello and welcome to the forum

A slip lead used on a dog that pulls is essentially a choke chain. We don't advocate punishing methods here, so my first bit of advice would be to dump your trainer and find one that uses positive reinforcement methods. Slips leads have their place, but that is not on a dog that can't already walk nicely. As you've found, a dog can still pull against it and it constricts their throat and windpipe as they do so. The reward (getting to where they want to go) outweighs the physical pain and so they keep doing it. Meaning they learn nothing, unless you start jerking it (sometimes called "checking" or similar euphemisms), and making it more painful - and potentially damaging - for him.

The way to train this is to use a combination of positive reinforcement and negative punishment. That means, rewarding him for doing what you want (positive reinforcement) and managing the situation so he can't self-reward (negative punishment). So, treats, toys, allowing him to have a sniff etc for walking on a loose lead. Stop and don't move an inch as soon as the lead tightens.

Set him up for success. Take each lead walk as a training exercise, rather than thinking you have to go somewhere. You don't. Even if you only walk the 20m outside your front door, up and down, that's fine. Once he can manage that, extend it a little. Give him ample opportunity to earn rewards by keeping the environment within something he can manage, and gradually (very gradually) make it harder for him as he succeeds at each level. Until he can walk well on lead, drive him to places where he can be off-lead so you don't put yourself in a position where you have to get to somewhere, and you resign yourself to your dog pulling. Every time he practices pulling and gets what he wants, the harder it makes it to train it out.

Here's an article that may be useful: http://www.thelabradorsite.com/walking-your-labrador-on-a-loose-lead/

 

Ive found that our dogs always always got more excited when going somewhere new. Im happy using slip leads/choke chains as I find a slight check neither jerks or half strangles them (this is incorrect use of the tool). It shouldnt get to that stage - the dog should response to checking as you would use when riding a horse where the same checking is used (moving the fingers not the whole arm - but holding the lead always works best if you hold it the same as you would hold a horse rein with the lead that goes to the dog going in through past your little finger and the rest out past your thumb. Id hate to see the damage caused by people using other things incorrectly like those haltis - awful on necks if people yank back on them instead of training the dogs.

Our older one eventually learnt if he got too excited and tried to reef off here and there he would be made to stop and sit - yes it took a while but the purpose of our walks was to actually WALK and there are stops where he can sniff. They are dogs they have sensitive noses and they can sniff the scents in the air they dont have to inhale by stopping when I dont want to. We actually train at obedience with food as the idea is for dogs to walk on a loose lead.

SOunds like it working the training you have done but when they are young they often forget - many grow out of it some dont. OUr older one is 6 and has his moments but he was a nightmare to walk when we got him as a 2yo - our previous dog grew out of it and was easy to walk if you had both the harness and choke chain (attached to the lead with the harness so it couldnt pull tight at all) as she got older.

 

A slip or choke chain is a punisher, pure and simple. http://www.thelabradorsite.com/punishment-in-dog-training/
If it wasn't, it wouldn't work. If you have a dog that lunges or pulls, it is a entirely inappropriate piece of equipment, and the dog will choke on it. There is nothing wrong with them, once you have a dog that walks perfectly and won't pull, but before that, you're punishing your dog every time you "check" - which is simply a euphemism to make the handler feel better about themselves. Replace "check" with "punish", which is the correct, scientific, term, and maybe you'll think differently?

 

SO people punish horses when using the exact same movement on a bit in their mouths when riding - with a 30kg dog just a flat collar and lead will also choke if they pull hard against it. I hated the amount of 'jerk' you had to use with a flat collar for basic handling was awful nothing slight or light about that. A harness with also apply pressure and actually encourage many to pull, haltis and other head gear - awful they arent horses its not the same angle as the gear horses are led in that they were based on.

Now with our adult dog I did actually attach it to the harness so he had the pressure but not the choke effect but just a harness isnt effective either - together they worked. And still walk him like that.

Overall you have to train a dog then they wont pull but no matter what you use on them until they are trained something will put pressure on them somewhere.

 

You don't have to jerk at all! You just stop and wait. If you try to use it as a punisher, then, yes, you'd have to jerk harder in order for it to have the same effect, because it doesn't hurt as much, because of the nature of the collar. But modern dog training is about not using punishment.

Yes, they do. Training horses is generally based around positive punishment and negative reinforcement - you apply pressure to the horse's sides (punishing) and remove it when the horse move forwards. But we're not talking about horse riding. We don't have a one-tonne beast we're trying to mould to our whim. We have a dog that will be trained perfectly well with the force-free pillars of positive reinforcement and negative punishment, where needed.

I wish this would die a death. No, harnesses do't encourage pulling and it's a nonsensical thing to suggest. Haltis and other headgear are also often punishing, and I don't condone their use.

You shouldn't attack a different piece of kit to justify using the one you do. That's not a rational argument.

Here is something we agree on. But, I will argue that having your dog put pressure on a back-attaching harness, which spreads the load over the whole of his front, is not punishing, whereas your choking device is. So, in itself, the harness doesn't train him because it doesn't hurt. It's the handler that does the training, through positive reinforcement (rewarding for not pulling) and negative punishment (preventing the dog moving forwards when he does pull), not the equipment.