Re: Dummies?? [quote author=charlie link=topic=1355.msg9089#msg9089 date=1365067370] Heidrun, one more point on this subject, We have tried on many occasions feeding Charlie his breakfast by hand during his walk/recalls on a training line and he WILL NOT take it at all, nor treats either not even smelly pilchards. So our 2 problems are he is NOT food orientated and won't retrieve on a walk on training line which I appreciate is difficult for him. In the paddock NO problem with either. I truly don't understand and I think he has become institutionalised if that makes sense and this is all because of his recall issue, I feel. It seems to be a catch 22 situation, let him off lead who knows what will happen, keep him on lead he can't retrieve as 10 mtrs isn't far enough to get him going and risk him reaching the end of that line . So we really don't know where to go from this point in his training. Helen [/quote] Barbara and David have already said it but there is no point trying to train a dog that is so overexcited by its environment that he can't focus on you for a few moments or take food even though he is hungry. That would be totally counterproductive to everything you are trying to achieve. And there is only one thing you can do - keep him on the lead on walks and find quite little spots where you can train for attention and focus. Try a little bit of obedience training, sit/stays, walking to heel, just looking at you, those sort of things to calm him down a bit. I am just about to upload a little video clip from this morning. It is the sort of thing I do every morning and every evening with Murffi. It is feed time, training, bonding and exercise all rolled into one. You have to remember that Murffi is also highly excitable and focus is not his strong point but hopefully you will be able to see how hard he is concentrating and how willing he is to work for his breakfast. I will try and put up the video in a minute.
Re: Dummies?? We keep him on lead for walks and find quiet spots to do sit/stays, walking to heel, "look at me" every day. I am overloaded now.
Re: Dummies?? Ok, here is the clip. Sorry guys, it is lengthy, about 5 minutes or so but quite a good example of a training session with Murffi. In that time he got all his breakfast ration. The training is totally hands off and I also speak very little because it just distracts him too much. Helen, if you feel overloaded by training tips, then this clip might not be right for you. It is clicker training and I know you don't want to go down that route. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-E-l3wSZDz0
Re: Dummies?? Thanks for posting that Heidrun, lovely video I have dug out my old article and reprinted it here It isn't aimed at pet dogs but the principle is one that is applied in many fields of dog training. Essentially you are making a behaviour that your dog wants (in this case hunting) contingent on him supplying the behaviour that you want (in this case retrieving) Pippa
Re: Dummies?? Great article, Pippa. It is exactly what I have done and on occasion still do with Murffi. "You don't want to retrieve? Fine. Back in the car.' It works. But like you say a dog can be very subtle about blinking, Murffi is a master of the art, and I have to be on the ball and not give him an inch.
Re: Dummies?? Just been out with Lady having watched you on the video, Heidrun. Copied what you were doing and had great fun with Lady including sitting while I circled her at a distance. This was with the boring old orange dummy. Then tried her on the pheasant skin dummy and of course (this is an ongoing problem) she trotted off homewards with it but as she was baulked by the sheep proof kissing gate she came back a few yards and put the dummy down. So I tried a new approach and placed the pheasant dummy while she was mooching around stood at the kissing gate then called her in and sent her off to find it. Easy peasy and she came trotting back and put it in my hand - SUCCESS! So stopped on a win at that point and I'll try again tomorrow. I guess that's a form of allowing her to do what she wants whilst engineering the result I want, Pippa?
Re: Dummies?? In this case David I think maybe you were anticipating the direction lady will travel in (ie homewards!) and interrupting her en route. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. With puppies one way of getting a delivery is to sit in the puppy's basket, as that is where he will take his prize Making one behaviour contingent on another is what scientists call the Premack principle, and you can read more about it here. Pippa
Re: Dummies?? So I guess the desirable activity is retrieving and carrying the pheasant skin and the reinforcer is she has to give it to me to get to do it again?
Re: Dummies?? Great video Heidrun, I love the way he seems to always be looking for the behaviour you're after with that ten to the dozen spaniel tail
Re: Dummies?? Helen, what is the goal you'd like to achieve with Charlie? What is the kind of dog you are aiming for in the end? e.g. A dog that will walk quietly on lead and give you attention when you ask? A dog who will come back when he is called, so that you can let him off the lead? A dog who will do retrieves? I guess I am asking because your goal will influence what it is you might be expecting of Charlie and yourself, and also will influence the steps between now and then. I'm also just wondering how important is it to you that he can run around off lead at this stage of his life? It sounds like you are already doing some really good things on walks to keep his mind engaged and to make the walks a fun activity (eg the snippets of obedience exercises that you mentioned). Maybe it is enough to just keep doing that without putting on the pressure (mainly on yourself) to achieve off-lead work in the great outdoors or retrieves? Sorry if it seems that I don't understand Charlie's history in asking the questions, as I am new here
Re: Dummies?? Rachel, I will be happy to recap. We rescued Charlie at 9 months now 28 months he is a Lab x Pointer. He came to us with no recall and was an absconder all of which we were not told by the rescue centre. I joined this site which was the best thing I could have done for Charlie and am now working through Pippa's Total Recall whistle training to get a recall in place. We want a dog that:- 1. Can walk quietly on lead to heel and give me attention 2. Will recall when off lead 3. Be obedient and happy as our pet I don't think retrieving will ever be his thing so I am just not going to worry about it any more, if he does he does, it not so be it. I know he can't be off lead until a reliable recall is in place, although I am sure Charlie doesn't agree :, so it's not important at the moment. You read my mind, I am as of today keeping it simple, I think I have tried to do too many things too quickly and only because we are desperate now having been at this for so long and being novices it has been hard for us to take so much information onboard from such experienced owners which we are not. We thought dog training should be fun but it has just been so stressful. We have another dog Hattie who is an absolute dream, so doing separate walks etc. too Thanks for your help and interest. Helen
Re: Dummies?? Thanks for going through all that, Helen. I'm sure it's been pretty hard at times and that you've asked yourselves a lot of questions. Looking back to where Charlie started, I am guessing that he has come a long way though, with you. Although I'm sure that Charlie would love to go charging around off lead, dogs don't really need to. I know people who can never let their dogs off lead outside a fenced environment, either because they'd instantly scarper or because they'd latch onto the jugular of the first strange dog they came across. But the dogs are happy just walking with their people. Anyway, I guess I am saying that it may not really matter if Charlie cannot be safely off lead for quite a long time. It will not matter and he will be ok.
Re: Dummies?? Hi Helen, as you know I'm very inexperienced dog owner and have had my times with my two...Cuillin's dog fears and Brodicks hunt drive, he sounds very similar to you Charlie. I can't give advice like the more experienced folk on here, but this morning after being fantastic for weeks Brodick did a Scarper (my fault, too much temptation and I should have known...) and i lost him for what was only about four minutes but seemed like forever, was so glad to see him charging round a hill (panicking as he'd got himself lost!) to find me but I did go home feeling a bit downhearted, you know, just when you think you are nailing it....anyway, I think I have been trying to achieve too much too soon with Brodick, and like you am focusing on keeping things simple again. for us its Reliable recall. He's has come on so much, as has your Charlie, am just thinking about one thing with him. He loves to play with balls with me in the park, he will retreive when its quiet and nothing else going on, but not up the hill, but I'm not going to think about that for now. I had thought that retreiving would work for him in the recall area, but it doesnt seem to so not going to stress about it...I think we can take on almost too much info, and end up putting ourselves under too much pressure. And if he has to be on the lead more than Cuillin then that's just what it will be like....I had to lead walk both of them for a few weeks recently as cuillin hurt her leg, and they didnt seem to give a hoot, happy as sandboys (and girls....) as long as I did bits and bobs to keep them entertained...
Re: Dummies?? Rachael, thanks for your reply. It is our absolute aim for Charlie eventually to be an off lead dog like Hattie but we do have a way to go. I feel it is unfare on a dog to keep it on a lead, that is just my personal opinion. There is a man in our village who has an adorable golden retriever who is 5 years old and because he ran off once he has never let that poor dog off lead since and hasn't done any work to rectify his behaviour. Charlie has come on such a long way and is unrecognisable from the boy that joined us, which I know is hard to believe for all the people that have helped us on this forum ;D, but believe me he was an absolute hooligan and yes along the way we have indeed asked ourselves lots of questions. Having said all that we are very lucky that Charlie is a wonderful dog, so happy, soppy, loyal and brilliant with our children and thankfully no agression what so ever, which is why we have kept going. Debsie, you are right I think overload sets it and that's it I feel I am failing. I really feel that the gundog stuff gets in the way of the pet stuff which is all I want. I feel I get drawn into the gundoggie bits and think oh I must try this, that and the other and go into overdrive and actually achieve very little. We will do aswell to keep it simple for now. Good luck you are doing a great job training two young dogs Helen x
Re: Dummies?? [quote author=charlie link=topic=1355.msg9137#msg9137 date=1365165820]It is our absolute aim for Charlie eventually to be an off lead dog like Hattie[/quote] Absolutely Off-lead is the ideal. I guess I really meant that it won't hurt Charlie if the steps on that road are small and many and involve being on some kind of lead in all but the dullest places for a while, and not to stress about it You will get there. It does sound like it is tricky in your area to find a location that would represent the 'next highest increment of excitement' from your familiar field. What about, when you are outside the field, the long line suggested by Lochan in another thread? With our first dog we used a tracking lead as they are light but strong a d won't give you rope burn if it should slip through your fingers.
Re: Dummies?? Thanks Rachael, it is difficult around here, but we have transfered his paddock work to our local park which is adjacent to fields just to do the proofing and that is working great, also take him into the first track in the woods to do sits/waits/leave it where there are rabbits, pheasants etc. he is doing really well with that and we only do it for a very short time and he has left said creatures! , so we are getting there. I will look into the tracking lead, not heard of it though. Helen
Re: Dummies?? wow I'm impressed Helen. Brodick would most certainly be trying to 'engage' with the said creatures....mind you this is the dog who is regularly ahem assisted into the front door by his harness at the moment (often on hind legs barking) as he has Seen A Cat, and will chase a paper bag if he gets the chance...am using the herons on his walk as practice for him just now. if I see them before him, I can get him to Sit and Wait, but he is quivering with excitement...oddly, the thing that still works best for him is anything to do with Running with me. he was about to chase the Heron recently after I missed it, both he and Cuillin had the Ears Up, On Toes, Tail Up look on and in a desparate move I blurted 'Lets Run Guys' (their Run command) and both of them turned round instantly, shot up to me, and looked at me ready to go...I ran them past the heron off lead too...not sure he finds running more exciting than wildlife, he just seems to think its his Job and he takes it all seriously....
