Failed on the loose lead walking - resorted to head collar :-(

When Monty was a small puppy, he never pulled forward. For months his problem was the opposite - pulling back, and sitting / lying down if he didn't want to go in the direction we wanted him to go in. So when he started pulling forward at 7-8 months, this was almost a blessing - at least we were making progress on our walks!

Of course, once he got to 24 ish kilos, this became a problem - I'm only 5'1 and seriously struggle. I've tried 3 months of clicker training, treating with verbal praise whenever he does walk nicely, all the suggestions on the main site, but have struggled to see any change in his behaviour. I do the on lead morning walk, needing to make progress before I leave for work , and OH does the afternoon, mostly off lead walk.
So I finally relented and bought a Gencon headcollar last week. It certainly works - except feel terribly guilty as Monty clearly hates it. We're building up wearing it, five mins, ten mins a day, etc, except this morning we met 3 spaniels in the park and in his desperation to pull towards them he was clearly hurting himself with this collar (solution - go off lead and just let him run about with them, so happy dog)

Just feeling a bit annoyed I am struggling with this - he generally walks so much better for my husband, I feel he senses a weak spot with me. But am so worried that if I don't have him under control on our pavement walks at all times I might one day let go of the lead and he rushes in front of a car.
One thing I have noticed - when I take the headcollar off he immediately walks more nicely for the next 5-10 minutes, so wonder if the headcollar could be just a temporary solution?

 

Re: Failed on the loose lead walking - resorted to head collar

We've all had those days, try not to give yourself a hard time

When you walk do you do a set route?
I think it's a myth that dogs need a "walk" that involves going from a to b for a set distance. If you can drive to somewhere with a bit of space then you can do lots of direction changing and really work on that heelwork which will let you retire the head collar.

Believe me my dogs are far from perfect and on lead walks with my spaniel consist of going round in circles in the raid just outside my house trying to improve his loose lead walking. We'll get there and so will you. Best of luck!

 

Re: Failed on the loose lead walking - resorted to head collar

Lots of sympathy. It's difficult to get a dog to walk on a loose lead, it's not an easy thing to do and there are few people who haven't had a real struggle with it with their first dog. I certainly did.

[quote author=leejane link=topic=10090.msg147495#msg147495 date=1425506276]
It certainly works - except feel terribly guilty as Monty clearly hates it.
[/quote]

I honestly believe head collars a punish a dog for pulling, which is why they work (they might be fine for dogs that don't pull, just like choke devices are ok for dogs that don't pull, but most people are using headcollars because their dogs do pull). The scenario where a dog still pulls in a headcollar (as you describe) is really scary, I think that has the potential to do a lot of damage.

I find this presentation quite persuasive on this point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9PGooz3Shk

It might be the case that your situation is such that you have no choice for your own safety but to use a headcollar, but your dog would be fine with one walk a day, and the time you spend in the morning walking him, you could just train loose lead. If all you do is walk up and down in front of your house, that's fine. That's all you need to do.

I highly recommend Turid Rugass' book "Help! My dog pulls". You can see a bit of her approach (but not all - you have to buy the book) here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsUcD1Ebfzw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPuf_nhUmE0&list=PLTp9rEhs4MBJPlwm_q4yG27uvBvj4IhdS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCStWBwPaO0&list=PLTp9rEhs4MBJPlwm_q4yG27uvBvj4IhdS&index=3

The other thing I'd say is it takes months to solve this, really, it takes ages. I don't say that to depress you, but that you need to find a way to relax, get your dog off lead exercise, and settle down to quite a long process.

This is a great series of videos that I saw posted on facebook tonight. Note that at the end of all this effort, the dog can walk in a straight line for about 20m along some cones. It cannot walk down a busy street with smells, people, other dogs....that's all yet to come, and this has to be proofed over distance and with distractions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSmOOcELgxU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qdMOUH1cSo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L1vae-sOXE

 

Re: Failed on the loose lead walking - resorted to head collar

I totally sympathise with you. I have a dog who pulls on lead. Off lead she is amazing, walks to heel, recall excellent, doesn't go far etc.
My dog walker introduced me to a k9 bridle head collar and wow......the difference is amazing. It doesn't pull their head to the side. I Am now able to walk around the block on a harness with no problems. I'm currently training flat collar around the block with no pulling. New / exciting places I use the head collar and will continue to use this until I can be sure she won't pull.
I am 5ft 2in and have spinal problems so can't have Harley pull.
Good luck and please update us as to how you are getting on

 

Re: Failed on the loose lead walking - resorted to head collar

Thanks for your replies and support!

[quote author=bbrown link=topic=10090.msg147498#msg147498 date=1425507242]

When you walk do you do a set route?
I think it's a myth that dogs need a "walk" that involves going from a to b for a set distance. If you can drive to somewhere with a bit of space then you can do lots of direction changing and really work on that heelwork which will let you retire the head collar.

[/quote]

We do vary every day, never repeating the route for another 3-4 days, we have big open fields at the back of our house, but as this is where he gets his afternoon off lead runs, I try not to use this space too much on the morning - also the pavement walsk are helping to keep his claws down a bit - I hope!

[quote author=JulieT link=topic=10090.msg147507#msg147507 date=1425509117]

with one walk a day, and the time you spend in the morning walking him, you could just train loose lead.

[/quote]

Because of his HD/ED, he can only have relatively short walks so that's why I try and get in 2 a day - (3 would be ideal but sometimes impossible) also he's left in the mornings so I would ideally like a slightly tired dog who will sleep for the next few hours. I just went out this morning and tried something similar - harness only, no head collar, either changing direction or stopping when he pulled - but crikey it's wearing. He will come to heel fairly well, and I click and treat, but it's like as soon as he's had the treat, that's job done and he can pull again - and in fact he pulls to the side even more than he pulls ahead, towards people's gardens.


[quote author=Naya link=topic=10090.msg147515#msg147515 date=1425510124]
I totally sympathise with you. I have a dog who pulls on lead. Off lead she is amazing, walks to heel, recall excellent, doesn't go far etc.
My dog walker introduced me to a k9 bridle head collar and wow......the difference is amazing. It doesn't pull their head to the side. I Am now able to walk around the block on a harness
Good luck and please update us as to how you are getting on


[/quote]

I've just googled this - it's exactly the type of collar I've just bought, and yes, wow... it just worried me yesterday how completely excited and wound up he got trying to get to those dogs - I suppose they were the biggest temptation possible - the rest of the time on the headcollar it's generally been ok, but occasional brings a paw up to try and get it off.


Will try and persevere through training alone - but that headcollar may well come back out when my muscles can't take it any longer!

 

Re: Failed on the loose lead walking - resorted to head collar

[quote author=leejane link=topic=10090.msg147528#msg147528 date=1425542155]
We do vary every day, never repeating the route for another 3-4 days, we have big open fields at the back of our house, but as this is where he gets his afternoon off lead runs, I try not to use this space too much on the morning - also the pavement walsk are helping to keep his claws down a bit - I hope!
[/quote]

You might just be taking things too fast. If you dog can't walk over the same bit of ground without pulling, he won't be able to walk over a new bit of ground without pulling. I know that might sound daft, but it really is the case that you need a "baseline" of what your dog can do before you try to move on.

So, can your dog walk to the end of your street and back without pulling? If not, don't try to do anything else until he can do this. He isn't going to be able to walk to the end of a strange street and back, or across the park, when he can't walk to the end of the most familiar street and back. And so on.

You say he runs ahead after the treat - you maybe need to look at your technique (can you get to any classes to get some tips at all?). Just to underline the rate of reinforcement - if you get chance to look at the videos I posted, you'll see the rate of reinforcement is 28 click and treats per minute. That's about a treat every 2 seconds. It really needs to be that fast at first. You practically have to machine gun in the treats for the early steps...

 

Re: Failed on the loose lead walking - resorted to head collar

Perhaps dealing with his pulling because of his desire to play with other dogs could be dealt with as a separate issue.

A whole combination of things worked for me with my spaniel who just loves playing with other dogs and was the most appalling puller on the lead. Firstly I took her to training classes right from the off with a wonderful positive C&T trainer where she learned to be calm in the presence of other dogs....we went through tons of cheese and chopped up frankfurters..yuk.., In addition we also joined our local dog club in the village hall , which was also positive most of the time but again it was about rewarding her for good behaviour in a crowded doggy environment with lots of noisy excited dogs, we had puppy play dates at home which involved settling down quietly as well as playing and lastly pub training was an essential too...lots of dogs in our local Everyone making a fuss of her as she lay there calmly! Out and about I would C&T for walking past other dogs and she would have to sit and wait calmly to be let off the lead to go and play...a lot of effort but worth it..not to say we don't have lots of other issues that need cracking!

 

Re: Failed on the loose lead walking - resorted to head collar

I use a head collar not because my dogs pull but because my dogs are reactive. I have more control and feel it's safer for all concerned. I have looked into the use of head collars and tried numerous types of head collar including a gencon. The one I use now a Swag head collar I find the best for our needs. It's very similar to a K9. My dogs have no problem with their head collar although we've used one since they were 8 months so they are very used to them and put them on like other dogs put a collar or harness on.

Lizi Angels blog about head collars I found very interesting. When the head collars I have now need replacing, probably sooner knowing me : , I think I will try what she suggests using a fixed action head collar and martingale collar with a double end lead. The double ended lead means you can walk on the collar but have the added benefit of the head collar should you need it. http://liziangel.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/head-collars.html

 

Re: Failed on the loose lead walking - resorted to head collar

[quote author=Jen link=topic=10090.msg147569#msg147569 date=1425554305]
I use a head collar not because my dogs pull but because my dogs are reactive. I have more control and feel it's safer for all concerned. I have looked into the use of head collars and tried numerous types of head collar including a gencon. The one I use now a Swag head collar I find the best for our needs. It's very similar to a K9. My dogs have no problem with their head collar although we've used one since they were 8 months so they are very used to them and put them on like other dogs put a collar or harness on.

Lizi Angels blog about head collars I found very interesting. When the head collars I have now need replacing, probably sooner knowing me : , I think I will try what she suggests using a fixed action head collar and martingale collar with a double end lead. The double ended lead means you can walk on the collar but have the added benefit of the head collar should you need it. http://liziangel.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/head-collars.html
[/quote]

I've just had time to read through that blog post thoroughly, and I'm a bit confused by it to be honest... In one breath she seems to be saying that head collars are bad because they 'clamp' the muzzle and the theory behind the application of calming pressure only works when they are fitted correctly which doesn't actually work, but then in another breath she's saying that certain types are ok. I don't understand what she means by muzzle clamping head collars and non muzzle clamping head collars. I have a gentle leader and that does not tighten around Penny's muzzle, but she has put them in the category of muzzle clampers.

Then she goes on to martingale collars, I can understand what she says about how they should be fitted properly if they are going to be used - when tightened they should not choke the dog at all and the two rings of the collar should meet around the dogs neck with no choke action, but I have no idea what she is on about when she says about how 'pulsing' the collar can give a calming effect.

Am I just being really dense?

 

Re: Failed on the loose lead walking - resorted to head collar

[quote author=JulieT link=topic=10090.msg147507#msg147507 date=1425509117]


This is a great series of videos that I saw posted on facebook tonight.
[/quote]

I took some time to watch these videos and have been trying a few things for the last 3-4 days. I've upped the amount of treats he gets, not quite the two per second but not far off. Whenever I feel a pull, I stand still and bring him back to heel (or a close approximation) before we walk again. I have decided to dispense with the clicker as holding the lead, fumbling for treats it became a bit of a pain. I'm just using 'good boy' to mark a good walk and treating immediately. It seems harder to bring him back to heel when he's pulled sidewards / back to sniff something, as he's so completely involved - and of course if I just stop then that's exactly what he wants. At least when he's simply pulling forward the standing still has an effect and he will more easily come back to heel/

I haven't used the headcollar since my last post, unfortunately I don't think it will die a complete death as my mum wants to be able to walk him short distances when she has him, and she's certainly not strong enough to contain any pulling. But am going to persevere a bit more - maybe my 3 months to date haven't been in vain completely!

Am particularly interested in the sheer number of treats that Alsatian gets - Monty would have used up his daily allowance in a few minutes! Also the walking backwards to begin with is something I might try on a patch of ground when I don't really want to walk him much, never thought of that before. Hilarious moments here when Monty has been woofing and growling in his sleep on hearing the dogs howl in the background of the video... they must be infiltrating his dreams!!

Am also pleased to see the strong advocates for a harness - we have nearly always walked Monty in a soft leather padded harness which I'm sure is more comfortable than a collar.

 

Re: Failed on the loose lead walking - resorted to head collar

It sounds like your making some good progress so well done!

If you're looking for treats that you can give large numbers of without needing to worry too much about daily allowance etc then try the Barker and Barker ones, of the smallest ones the daily allowance for a Labrador sized dog is about 100 so you can give plenty!!

 

Re: Failed on the loose lead walking - resorted to head collar

Good to see you feeling more positive and making progress. It's good to know that perseverance gets us there in the end, literally one step at a time.

 

Re: Failed on the loose lead walking - resorted to head collar

[quote author=leejane link=topic=10090.msg148410#msg148410 date=1425935279]

Am particularly interested in the sheer number of treats that Alsatian gets - Monty would have used up his daily allowance in a few minutes!

[/quote]

I think this is one of the things about teaching some things by positive reinforcement - particularly loose lead walking. The rate of reinforcement of treats is huge. But the people you see on the video are not training for 30 minutes. They are not trying to walk a dog that hasn't learned how to walk on a lead for 30 minutes or so. They are doing 5 mins at a time.

Even so though, you do have to up the rate of reinforcement beyond what you might think - just stop wasting food by giving it to him in a bowl. He can have his entire breakfast in loose lead walking.... Even now, if I'm in a difficult spot, I'll go back to "machine gun treats". It really does have to be that fast...

 

Re: Failed on the loose lead walking - resorted to head collar

I think the point Lizi Angel makes about controlling stronger and bigger animals with a fixed action head collar is interesting and true. You control a shire horse for example with a fixed action head collar so why does a dog need a muzzle clamping head collar. To be honest I'm not sure why the gentle leader isn't classed as a fixed action head collar. Having used one myself I agree with you Lauren however fitted properly the nose strap does restrict the dog's mouth. I stopped using the gentle leader because I found my dogs had difficulty panting fully in warm weather.

This link might explain about pulsating the collar better. http://www.blackdog.net.au/index.php?route=product/product&path=64&product_id=97

 

Re: Failed on the loose lead walking - resorted to head collar

Thanks Lauren, I'll have a look for those, I'm currently just giving kibble, they are fairly big pieces which I find easier to feed - he still grabs quite a bit, not a gently mouth so the bigger chunks mean less teeth meet fingers - he never bites but is still a bit rough. Another training issue to add to the list....

I save the best treats - ham, chicken, cheese for the more 'important' stuff - recall off the lead, keeping calm at vets / when he has laser therapy, getting up the ramp into the car (he was not happy about the ramp - he prefers to be lifted!) but as he's on an eternal diet I limit these to special occasions.

 

Re: Failed on the loose lead walking - resorted to head collar

Maybe I'm going to have to resort to a treat bum bag. I really didn't want to, I look un-stylish enough on our walks already

 

Re: Failed on the loose lead walking - resorted to head collar

There are some lovely treat bags on the market, you don't have to be unstylish!! I use a climbers chalk bag, this one: http://m.gooutdoors.co.uk/ophir-chalk-bag-p294051&gclid=CPLR7tWcnMQCFVDHtAodnQ8ACA&gclsrc=aw.ds and it is perfect! Also discreet enough to hide under a coat if you wanted to!

 

Re: Failed on the loose lead walking - resorted to head collar

I already have to hide my tummy under my coat!!!

They don't look bad actually, what do they have to clip to?

 

Re: Failed on the loose lead walking - resorted to head collar

[quote author=Jen link=topic=10090.msg148419#msg148419 date=1425936130]
I think the point Lizi Angel makes about controlling stronger and bigger animals with a fixed action head collar is interesting and true. You control a shire horse for example with a fixed action head collar so why does a dog need a muzzle clamping head collar. To be honest I'm not sure why the gentle leader isn't classed as a fixed action head collar. Having used one myself I agree with you Lauren however fitted properly the nose strap does restrict the dog's mouth. I stopped using the gentle leader because I found my dogs had difficulty panting fully in warm weather.

This link might explain about pulsating the collar better. http://www.blackdog.net.au/index.php?route=product/product&path=64&product_id=97
[/quote]

I like the look of that head collar actually, and the sound of how it works. Is this like the ones you use Jen?

 

Re: Failed on the loose lead walking - resorted to head collar

[quote author=leejane link=topic=10090.msg148430#msg148430 date=1425937308]
I already have to hide my tummy under my coat!!!

They don't look bad actually, what do they have to clip to?
[/quote]

Most come with a belt type attachment to just put around your waist - the issue I had with regular treat bags is they required a pocket or belt hook to clip on and I wear 'jeggings' when I walk the dog as they are so comfy so had nothing to clip on to. One thing I will say though is that they don't seem to cater for larger people. I am a UK 14-16 and the belt is on the largest it will go. But other than that I can't rate it enough! It does everything I want it to do, and it was thanks to someone on the forum that I discovered it!