Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

And i do mean defensive!
At the weekend I went with my sister and her boyfriend to the westcountry game fair and as expected Murohy was a pain in the bum pulling towards every dog he could and was really over excited. Now, my sis is a vet nurse assistant and thinks she knows everything about dogs, she was a pain also yanking him around by his collar (even when i had hold of his lead) and was just generally huffy and puffy about it all. My dad then rang me today saying "you really need to sort out Murphys pulling on the lead and do more training with him" my sis had obviously rang and told him) and in the past my sis and him have made comments about his pulling when out and about and almost suggest that it should be easy for me to sort out! My sis and her boyfriend are always saying "when we get a dog we wouldnt let him do what Murphy does" about recall from other dogs etc like its easy to have a perfectly trained 10 month old with no problems.
So anyway I get really defensive saying that he is a 10 month old excitable puppy and putting him in a situation like a busy game fair with dogs and people everywhere is never going to be easy for him and that he can walk well on the lead when there arnt any dogs around etc. and i also say that labs are particularly friendly dogs etc so they are hard to train in this sense.
I am I being fairly accurate with this or am i just making excuses??

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

Going from a mildly distracting or familiar situation to a game fair is like going from 2/10 to 10/10 on the excitement scale. You would fully expect all training and self-control to go out the window in such a challenging new situation. So, you are not making excuses!

In that kind of situation I wouldn't expect anything much but I'd use it as an opportunity to take my dog to a distance at which he could control himself (however far that might be) and practise some basics like getting attention, lying quietly, or walking a few steps on a loose lead. With a young and excited dog even that would be an achievement

A good thing to do now would be to find some situations that are not 10/10 on the scale, but 3/10. In those situations, find a distance at which Murphy can keep his head and practise and heavily reward loose lead walking, quiet waiting and attention on you. Move a little closer as he seems able to.

One day karma will give your sister a dog that makes Murphy look like Lassie. And then you can just smile quietly

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

What a shame Frankie.
Sounds like you had a bit of a miserable time.
At almost 4, I am sure Lilly would struggle a bit in this situation. I don't know for certain, as we would avoid such an exciting place with her!
Stick at it, its easy to say, difficult to do.
Hope the karma kicks in for sis

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

We would have no hope in the same situation. All you can do is work with the dog you have and the opportunities available to you. Take no notice of anyone who compares dogs to each other as they're all different and take even less notice of some who compares your dog to a fictional dog they don't even own!!!

Even I could train an imaginary dog to trialling standards 8)

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

We were thinking of going to the show...however, we felt trying to deal with Benson and all those distractions would have potentially ended in misery, so we didn't go in the end as felt we wouldn't appreciate the show.

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

Well...I have to say, after I posted about the back fastening harness (as you were about to leave) I almost picked my iPad up again to say "how about leaving him at home?". Please don't think I'm being mean! I have a dog that is pretty terrible on his lead too! So no room for being smug here. We're a disgrace walking round a new duck pond.

But...you did know that Murphey was going to do this...as Rachael said, it was too big a jump for him.

It takes ages (for me) to even train a new street. Slow and steady wins the game here.

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

Of course i dont think you are being mean JulieT! It definately would have been best if i had left him at home as I nearly cried about 3 times and i think he may have even got a bit stressed by it all. The only good thing about it was that i bought him a nice comfy padded harness that fits perfectly and has adjustable room for any more growing, and that has a front and back fastening for any situation. I wasnt happy with the other harness we had as the straps were quite thin and i didnt like the idea of them digging in.

Thanks everyone for making me feel better! I know it was a ridiculous jump which was never going to end well, i just thought its good for him to be in those busy situations, but maybe not! I tok him to a few shows like that when he was younger and lighter which i think meant that his pulling wasnt so much of a problem as he wasnt as strong! I even said to the lady with the harness that, he is my first dog and the only thing i regret doing and if I ever get another puppy would never ever do again is not stop pulling from the very very start. Because he was so little and cute It didnt really bother me or cause problems and I forgot that he would grow up to be a big strong dog!

Thanks again everyone

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

Hello, nice to see other folks have problems with the pulling. Chloe is now just 1. She has always been good on the lead from day one at 9 weeks, but as she has got older and heavier, she is still ok until we meet someone who says Hi, Hello Chloe, then she charges, jumps up, and if they have a dog, generally get the leads tangled, I am no youngster, so now tell folk to stay away from us or I cross the road, my arms and back are getting worse.
I bought a Halti, (had two labs before who never pulled) never needed a Halti, anyway, the nose piece was too slack, the size was correct, the collar was tight enough, but you cannot adjust the nose piece, so she kept getting it in her mouth , our pet shop told me loads of people come back with chewed nose pieces, so I have ordered, but not received, a Belphar gentle leader, this you can adjust on the nose, has anybody tried these?

I have also been told that an allinone is good,ie lead and nose band, however, going to give the Belphar a good try, it seems to have good reports on Amazon forum.

Just wondering what folk think of these.

Thanks, Val

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

I don't think you did the wrong thing to take him, Frankie But if you take him places like that it can be best to see it 100% as a dog training exercise which means the dog's ability to cope dictates how close you get to the new and exciting stuff. You might need to hang about on the very edge of the periphery, which would still be a good experience for him.

If a relaxing and fun time for the humans is the plan, though, taking Murphy might just cramp your style.

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

I often feel I'm on the wrong forum here, as I obviously don't fit in that well. :-\

Anyway, I'm not saying your sis and you Dad should be lecturing you, but as you asked, I'd be blowed if I let a 10 month old dog drag me around, regardless of where I was.

I work very hard to make sure my dogs don't pull from day one. I do try to expose them to as many distractions as I can to stop them suddenly losing their head, but on the occasions they do forget their manners, they get told in no uncertain terms they aren't going to do that again.

I simply will not put up with bad mannered dogs, as I take my dogs anywhere and everywhere with me; through towns, on holiday, to country fairs, etc, etc. I don't want to have to leave them at home, or be hurt by them when out (and it does hurt if they yank me, as I've got spinal and other joint problems).

How do you think they train Guide Dog and other Assistance Dogs to behave in so many different situations? It isn't by putting up with bad behaviour, or making excuses for it. It's by exposing the dog to as many different things as possible but also by letting the dog know exactly when it's got things right AND when it's got things wrong.

All this positive only training is fantastic and works really well in a controlled ideal world, but in the REAL world, sometimes you need to be a bit more Good Cop/ Bad Cop to get the dog to behave.

That's my take on it anyway *Goes off to don tin hat again* .

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

I definitely don't put up with bad manners either I deal with it by showing my dog what I want instead and by making that worth his while. Also by trying, as much as possible, not to put him in a situation that is beyond his abilities to manage. I don't always get it right but I feel that it's my responsibly to try and come up with creative solutions that are in my dog's and my mutual interest.

The furthest I stray into the 'negative' is a loud 'AH AH!' to interrupt a behaviour (like showing too much interest in the pet ducks) so I can redirect to a better option (come to me instead). Removal of positives is also fine in my book (removal of attention or things the dog wants like the chance to keep moving forward while pulling).

Totally agree that there is no requirement to allow your dog to do whatever it wants though. That's not what positive training is about.

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

I call this sort of situation a " sensory overload " :
Everyone who has met my Sam knows that he is a very laid back chilled out lad ( two and a half now but always been the same ) but if he is plunged into a new and exciting environment , I can see the change in him , nose begins to twitch , head held high , begings to show his anticipation by some pulling on the lead , time to remove him as quickly and quietly as possible :
Unfortunately , there are always those who think they know best and are quick to judge and profer their " expert " advice , a strong pinch of salt is needed at times

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

I've just had a strange kind of breakthrough with Poppy regarding walking at heel. She's always pretty good - EXCEPT when there is a dummy anywhere around. I've discovered, quite by accident, that 'clicking' with her reward word ('Good') really doesn't work - as soon as she is walking to heel and I say 'Good', she assumes she's getting a treat, or a throw of the dummy, and starts scuttling forward again. So now I don't praise her good walking to heel; I just take it as a given, and if she starts moving forward I just say 'No', firmly but not roughly. Do you know, for us, that is working much better.

Every dog is different; and the way each handler interacts with each dog is also different. So I don't think there is ever a 'one size fits all' recipe. I do think though Frankie that as has been said before you need to start increasing the excitement level SLOWLY. So maybe your next public excursion could be something a little less highly charged for Murphy, where you can keep in the background a bit and gently start increasing his exposure to crowded areas with all the sensory overload that entails.

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

How's that hat holding up Jules

Despite being a huge supporter and proponent of positive reinforcement training, as some will already know, my own view is that established leash pulling, in an older dog, is one of the few skills for which the merits of positive reinforcement training, are arguably weak. I've written about this before on this forum, not sure where.

By established, I mean an older, stronger dog, that has been allowed to pull for a long time and is impervious to the weight he is dragging along behind him.

Most experienced traditional trainers can turn around a 'puller' in just a session or two. Using some degree of force/intimidation. Now whether or not that is right/acceptable and so on, depends very much on your view point. But proofing heel work in a determined 'puller' can take weeks, if not months of patient training using positive only methods.

Arguably, the dog stands to gain from the vastly shorter 'training period' of 'traditional' training, by enjoying more time out with his family who are more inclined to spend time with him in any kind of situation. Undoubtedly the shorter training time benefits the owner, whose arms can recover and whose enjoyment of the dog is often increased profoundly.

Arguably the use of force impairs the relationship between dog and handler, though I have seen no convincing evidence of this. Arguably, lead checks can harm the dog. These last two are probably true to some extent, depending on the skill of the handler. But we don't really know for sure.

It is a controversial topic, and I think it is good that we can discuss it openly here, without anyone being jumped on. So I hope Jules can take off her hat

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

Ah Frankie fair play to you continuing to expose Murphy to new situations and experiences,think this is just a case of too much too soon and not having sympathetic,supportive companions around you ;D
If your sister can't be helpful to you with all the skill and experience she obviously must think she has then she certainly shouldn't criticize you.Id be feeling decidedly miffed too.Sounds like you have got some great equipment sourced and fitted to help you with the pulling,I know I've spoken to you before about my established puller.....keep consistent and persistent and you can improve things and don't let anyone knock your confidence,just rethink and plan your next outing using all the great advice you've been given x

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

[quote author=Jules link=topic=5047.msg63388#msg63388 date=1395735563]
All this positive only training is fantastic and works really well in a controlled ideal world, but in the REAL world, sometimes you need to be a bit more Good Cop/ Bad Cop to get the dog to behave.
[/quote]

Jules, what are the Bad Cop methods for a dog that pulls on it's lead, if you don't mind me asking? Thanks

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

[quote author=editor link=topic=5047.msg63439#msg63439 date=1395749430]

How's that hat holding up Jules



[/quote]

It's doing ok Pippa, as is my Rhino Hide LOL .

It's just very frustrating when you see so many dogs dragging their owners about and for some reason they feel this is acceptable, or excusable, or that if they ignore the behaviour, it'll get better.

Contrary to what no doubt a lot of people think, I'm a rather quiet handler. I don't holla and hoot at my dogs, I rarely need to correct them, but that's because I use minimal force at all times and try my hardest to set them up for success. It's just that you can't ALWAYS practise everything. There isn't a country fair every week you can go to, I don't take my dogs into busy town centres every day, but if the dog knows it's not to pull and really KNOWS this, then it won't pull wherever you are. How you get the dog to know not to pull for me means practising from young, little by little, in fact teaching/conditioning them to walk to heel (and I don't mean competition style, but just by my side) off lead right from the first day they come home.

Of course, there are occasions when the situation is all very exciting, there's lots of distractions and the young dog forgets what it's meant to be doing and then I do whatever it takes to correct and remind it, so that I can reward it for getting it right. Now for my own dogs a simple "AH AH" or "WHAT are you doing?" is enough to get their attention and for them to remember their manners, but for others, especially if they have been allowed to get away with pulling, yanking and generally running the show, they would probably need a little more of a physical approach, to make them sit up and think and for them to be more respectful of their owners/handlers.

Pulling, yanking and generally dragging the owner along are self rewarding behaviours, so if you ignore them, or hope they go away with time, or hope they grow out of it, they only seem to get worse. They need telling that they are getting it wrong and that there are consequences to that, whilst also being reminded that if they get it right, then nice things happen.

I just think it's really sad how many people avoid taking their dogs to certain places, or dread going because they know their dog is probably going to misbehave, when all it probably would have taken was a few reminders to "Mind Your Manners Matey!!!" while their dog was young and their dog would then have grown into a pleasure to take anywhere. And this doesn't just go for dogs, but horses and children too .

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

[quote author=charlie link=topic=5047.msg63489#msg63489 date=1395759254]

Jules, what are the Bad Cop methods for a dog that pulls on it's lead, if you don't mind me asking? Thanks
[/quote]

It would depend on the dog, the dog's age and the severity of the problem.

We cross posted, but as I said above, for my own dogs, then a simple growly "AH AH" would usually do the trick, followed by a "Good Girl" when they fell into the right position. For strong dogs with an established problem though, then I'd probably be looking at walking them in a front guiding harness and being much more strict and firm with them. I'd probably go as far as scruffing a dog (as in lifting it's front feet off the ground slightly, while holding the loose skin on the sides of it's neck and giving it a good telling off and eyeballing) but that, I'd only use if nothing else had got through to it, that I'M in charge and not him/her. However, I do think if a dog has become that disrespectful, then it needs working on at home, as well as when on lead, as something is badly amiss if a Labrador totally disregards it's owner.

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

[quote author=Jules link=topic=5047.msg63495#msg63495 date=1395759997]
I'd probably go as far as scruffing a dog (as in lifting it's front feet off the ground slightly, while holding the loose skin on the sides of it's neck and giving it a good telling off and eyeballing) but that, I'd only use if nothing else had got through to it, that I'M in charge and not him/her.
[/quote]

Well...this wouldn't be for me. For quite a few reasons. The main one is that I don't think it's a good look when out and about. ;D

But seriously, it wouldn't work for my dog - not at all. My dog misbehaves on his lead through excitement and frustration. Shaking him (hard and roughly enough so he didn't think it was a game) and speaking very harshly may make take him aback a bit for a few seconds, but he wouldn't stop misbehaving for longer than the few seconds he was taken aback - my actions wouldn't enable him to control either his excitement or frustration. In order to teach him to do that, I need to take it slowly, keep him in situations where he can cope, reward calm, and build up distractions gradually.

Indeed, by the time I'd stopped, got hold of him and started shaking him I would worry that he may well think the punishment is for letting me grab hold of his head rather than for pulling. I think I'd have to repeat, and repeat and repeat it. I think that would take me to a place that I really, really, do not want to go.

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

Hi everyone, just caught up on everything that has been said.

Firstly, Jules, I have already said that I wish i had dealt with pulling from the start but as a first time dog owner, it was something that at the time I didnt think about. If I ever get a dog from a puppy again I will definitely be much stricter about it. I can also assure you that i dont think Murphy pulling me around is acceptable and I am working hard to try and correct it not ignoring it. I have been known to tell Murphy off about pulling when I am finally at the end of my tether by yanking him back and then really shouting no at him. But it only stops him for a few seconds and then he will carry on much like JulieT said.

I want to get murphy used to going to places like that as I enjoy them and so even though I knew he was going to pull whilst there I still wanted to take him which of course I know was setting him up to fail. I was intending on taking him to the royal bath and west show in may which is huge but i dont think I will now!