Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

I do use high value treat rewards too, especially when teaching them a new command, or taking them into a brand new situation. I use the Treat Lottery system to make them try harder to get the reward they desire too, but there's always going to be the occasion when what they desire is greater than what I have in my pocket, even if it is roast chicken.

So what do you do when this happens? Or heaven forbid, what do you do when the roast chicken runs out?

And this is exactly what I aim to redress. We're talking Labradors here not hard wired prey driven dogs like Terrier or Hounds, they CAN learn self control if we reward them when they get things right AND show them there's consequences if they don't. I've taken Lab puppies into supermarkets where meats and cheeses are all at nose level. I've taken them to places where there are birds flapping about, fluffy things running around and other dogs are working/playing and I've had to make sure they knew exactly when it was playtime and when it wasn't; and when it wasn't they had to behave how I've taught them. They CAN do that and they can do that from surprisingly young. This is how you get them to a year old and ready to go into training to become Guide Dogs. By the time they are 18 month-ish old, they are out there doing a very responsible job. They wouldn't fare very well if you were still having to bribe them to behave with roast chicken to get them to control themselves, would they . In fact I believe Guide Dogs have stopped their Puppy Walkers from using treat rewards at all now when training their pups, for what reasons I don't know though, as I no longer Puppy Walk for them.

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

[quote author=Jules link=topic=5047.msg63892#msg63892 date=1395904983]
They wouldn't fare very well if you were still having to bribe them to behave with roast chicken to get them to control themselves, would they .
[/quote]

Jules, you must know that using only positive methods is not about bribing with roast chicken as a long term strategy! Rachael's post above sets that out very clearly.

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

[quote author=JulieT link=topic=5047.msg63918#msg63918 date=1395910893]
[quote author=Jules link=topic=5047.msg63892#msg63892 date=1395904983]
They wouldn't fare very well if you were still having to bribe them to behave with roast chicken to get them to control themselves, would they .
[/quote]

Jules, you must know that using only positive methods is not about bribing with roast chicken as a long term strategy! Rachael's post above sets that out very clearly.
[/quote]

Of course...Hence the Winky face at the end. 8)

Sometimes it's hard to get a point across without saying something to get people to stop and think, that's all .

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

I agree with Jules, a dog needs to learn self control and I don't feel constantly waiving food under their noses is teaching them, just giving them choices. A wise dog will choose food, but not always! I have had lessons with so called positive trainers and well known ones and I have seen them be very hard on their dogs, though I am not advocating that. I have had a GSP who when out in the field was not the slightest interested in a food reward!

I think a dog needs to know there are consequences once it does know a command and chooses to ignore it, but those consequences don't need to be punishment.

Incidentally, I am betwixt and between, haven't got my dogs to the obedience that Jules has :-[ The two year old Lab is obedient, he was trained with a ball. The just 8 year old has been very difficult, nervous by nature and missed out on socialisation because of fractured elbow at 16 weeks and then confinement for two months, getting better though, but has a definite will of his own.

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

I don't think anyone is either wrong or right here. But I do think we often see this debate with far too much 'black and white' perspective. Far too many traditional trainers claim that positive-only training does not work. And far too many positive-only trainers claim that the use of any aversives at all are damaging to a dog. Neither of these claims are true. It is not that simple.

And please can we get away from the idea that positive-only training is about bribery with food. This is completely misleading!

Whether or not positive only methods, or alternatively, the use of aversives, are the best choice for you, will depend partly on your personal views, and partly on the skill you are teaching.

Different ways of training heel work

Heelwork, for example, is about establishing a default behaviour (walk nicely next to me whenever you are wearing a lead). You can teach a dog different types of behaviour on leash, allowing him to sniff ahead for example, without actually dragging you along, but there is little doubt that this complicates things. It is simplest for the dog if mere presence of a lead means "walk next to me"

You can teach a dog to choose this behaviour because he has been reinforced for it (positive reinforcement training) or you can teach a dog to choose this behaviour because he has been punished for deviating from it. Many people use a combination of the two.

The problem with positive-only training is that the training process requires total control over the rewards available to the dog. And this (as Jules says) can be very difficult to control. It is not however, impossible. And many people reach a very high level of skill and proofing of heelwork, both on and off leash, with dogs that have never experienced any kind of aversive at all.

I think it is important to stress this because a lot of people these days, really want to train their dogs without aversives. And I think that this is both an admirable and achievable goal. It is however important to be aware of the controls you will need to put in place in order to get where you want to go, without using any aversives. Before you choose a method, it is important to ask yourself what, if any, are the costs to the dog (in some cases an extended training time), and to you, of the approach you are taking. Your chances of success will also depend partly on your own temperament.

Taking control

People will approach your dog, even when you ask them not to, and so on. You will need to be willing to go out of your way to set up training scenarios to practice in. This will mean turning down invitations to walk with other people, being very selective over where you take your dog, and being bossy with total strangers that you meet out on walks.

If you are a fairly assertive person, you will be able to put up your hand, and say to an approaching stranger "please do not come any closer, I am training my dog". You will be able to say to difficult relatives - "don't touch the dog" in a way that will make them sit up and listen. Not everyone can do this. Some people are simply not assertive enough, and their efforts to control what is happening around their dog may be scuppered, every time they go out. However, the more you can take control of what is going on around the dog, the less likely you are to need aversives in order to succeed.

Do aversives damage your dog?

One of the main practical problems with punishing a dog for deviating from the required behaviour in many training scenarios, is that it reduces his desire to be with the person administering the punishment. With on leash heel work, this is less of a problem because the dog is attached to you. So avoidance behaviours are less likely to emerge.

Some positive only trainers claim that using aversives in one situation will spill over into all your other interactions with the dog. Some claim that the dog becomes emotionally damaged But the situation is more complex than that. There is a world of difference between the worst and the mildest aversive. I am not sure that it is reasonable to lump them all together in this way. There is no doubt that many trainers who use aversives in a moderate (subjective I know) or what most people would consider mild and appropriate way, have excellent relationships with their dogs. Whilst I personally prefer nowadays to avoid aversives in most situations (for many reasons) there is little evidence to suggest that mild aversives used appropriately, do any harm at all to your relationship with your dog. What they may do however, is inhibit learning. And that is a problem I'll look at in a minute

Do aversives lead to abuse?

If mild aversives used appropriately do no harm, why not promote their use? Especially for dogs that pull, an issue that is not the easiest to resolve using positive only methods. Well for me, the big problem with aversives is that their use tends to escalate. Even the nicest person, when correcting a dog with an appropriate amount of force without success, is likely to 'ramp up' the level of force somewhat. Acceptance of the general use of aversives in dog training definitely makes that use 'more acceptable' and in some cases leads to abuse. This can be clearly seen in the gun dog community, where many trainers use scruff shakes, harsh lead corrections, etc and inevitably some trainers are too heavy handed and become abusive towards their dogs. Because the general use of such punishments is acceptable, it is very difficult to define and identify when it goes too far, and abusers are often sheltered by the community as a whole.

Fortunately, amongst the wider public, many of the punishments that were routinely and publicly administered to dogs less than twenty years ago, are now gradually disappearing. People are a lot nicer to their dogs. This is surely down to the growth of knowledge and skill in positive-only dog training. And surely a good thing!

Fear inhibits learning

Aversives inhibit learning because they generate fear of consequences. With moderate aversives, this fear will not usually be sufficient to distress a dog, but what it does do, is make him reluctant to offer new behaviours. If you are at an early stage in the training process, this is a nuisance, because you are trying to develop new behaviours all the time. If on the other hand, your dog is pretty much trained in all the respects that you want him to be trained, you may well be happy for his inclination to offer new behaviours to be a little squashed.

Strictly speaking, anything (other than no consequence at all) which diminishes the preceding behaviour, is a punishment

If you want to train without aversives at all, please don't be put off. But, with a "leash puller" you will need to be confident in your ability to focus entirely on your dog whilst he is on the lead. You have to ensure that the only consequence to pulling, is NO consequence. Nothing that the dog enjoys, must follow a pull. He mustn't be physically able to move forwards, to touch anyone, or anything. You have to be willing to accept that all 'lead time' is training time, willing to be very picky initially, about where you take your dog on the lead, and willing to 'take charge' of the people who approach your dog in public places.

Many of the things I now teach a dog without even touching it, I would have not dreamed I would have been capable of twenty years ago. I would laughed at the thought of teaching these skills with no force whatsoever. We have come such a long way in dog training, and I think that if we persist in using positive reinforcement wherever possible, we'll be able to do even more, in the future

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

A hugely useful and insightful post.

I used to do one additional thing that I viewed as punishment - I changed direction if pulling didn't decrease with stopping and waiting for the lead to go slack. I know this can distress my dog if I do this too often, and this does amount to a punishment for him. This is my absolute top limit of punishments that I'm prepared to consider though. And (see below) I no longer even do this.

[quote author=editor link=topic=5047.msg63947#msg63947 date=1395917342]
But, with a "leash puller" you will need to be confident in your ability to focus entirely on your dog whilst he is on the lead. You have to ensure that the only consequence to pulling, is NO consequence. Nothing that the dog enjoys, must follow a pull. He mustn't be physically able to move forwards, to touch anyone, or anything. You have to be willing to accept that all 'lead time' is training time, willing to be very picky initially, about where you take your dog on the lead, and willing to 'take charge' of the people who approach your dog in public places.
[/quote]

I agree this is key. I work, have a busy social and family life, and I still manage to do this. I also have a dog that is injured and displaying a range of behaviours linked to excitement and frustration, and I'm still managing. I don't have a lot of options, I can't implement lead jerks or changing direction, or anything else that might unbalance him and shift his weight incorrectly. It's taking time, but it is working and I honestly think I'll end up with a well behaved dog.

I know that it's not right to say "I manage with positive only methods, therefore so can everyone else" - Pippa makes a coherent argument about why that's not right. But the first step is understanding the commitment you have to make, I think.

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

This is really interesting to read through , mainly, for me because recently , I embarked on an experiment re training .
Having always had the two extremes of dog together , a gundog an a terrier ( or two ) I had always had to employ much firmer methods of training with the terriers than the gundogs , the former being strong willed , stubborn little devils ( but I adore them for it )
When we rescued Millie , terrier type , about nine months ago , she came with absolutely no history at all ,not even a clue of her age although our Vet puts her at around 6/7 years of age .
It was evident that she had had little training and for the first time ever with a terrier , I decided to take the more gentle approach, using food as , being a former stray, she was a greedy little monkey .
I have never had to raise my voice at her , she has responded to the reward method which isnt always food , often just lots of praise which she also loves .
Dont get me wrong , she is no angel , still has a tendancy to run to other dogs, but will recall away from them , she is a work in progress but we seem to have formed a bond of trust and love .
I am certain that had I shouted at her or punished her in any way , she would not have responded so positively to me .
I guess that, like human beings , all dogs have different temperaments and therefore maybe react to different methods of training ?

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

Fear can certainly inhibit learning as I know from experience. I went to a very good gundog trainer, but if we didn't to it EXACTLY as the trainer wanted then we were told off, consequently I was frozen into inactivity, too afraid to make a move in case it was wrong. I joined a gundog club and finally learned to relax and have a happy dog as a consequence. I have seen dogs frozen with indecision in case they are punished.

Clicker training is so good for dogs as they learn to experiment and a dog that does his/her own learning, learns greatly and it sticks.

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

[quote author=Stacia link=topic=5047.msg64055#msg64055 date=1395930273]
Fear can certainly inhibit learning as I know from experience. I went to a very good gundog trainer, but if we didn't to it EXACTLY as the trainer wanted then we were told off, consequently I was frozen into inactivity, too afraid to make a move in case it was wrong.
[/quote]

Maybe a good gundog trainer but not necessarily a good people trainer

So glad you found somewhere that suited better! It's definitely worth shopping around to find a trainer you really like working with.

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

[quote author=Jules link=topic=5047.msg63892#msg63892 date=1395904983]


So what do you do when this happens? Or heaven forbid, what do you do when the roast chicken runs out?


[/quote]

While shops still sell chickens to roast....Dexter will always have roast chicken! ;D

Let me qualify this........we live in a really dog unfriendly city.there are no 'spontaneous' outings for Dexter,all his walks are planned and the day fitted round them as we can't just put him in the car and take him with us anywhere,no supermarket visits for him :'( Hes never even been into anyone else's home That being the case there is never a time when he's out with me that I don't have my treat bag which also contains his poo bags and a spare whistle........Dexter is my first dog.....I admit to being very inept,I've made mistakes and wish I'd done many things differently but we keep plugging along persistently and I hope in most cases consistently.When we first got Dexter,he was like an Exocet missile on the end of a lead....it was dreadful,I wasn't prepared for the stop/start technique that I'd read up on not working....it just didn't for us ( I take the blame for that due to me not doing it effectively,again total lack of experience :-[ ) I took all the help and advice I could from the forum and Pippas training excercises and we made progress.Dexter couldn't walk past anything,he wanted to pull to every person,bike,pram, tissue,bird,leaf,earbud,crisp packet,coke can etc etc etc.....roast chicken was his reward for loose lead walking past these things......would this have happened anyway with maturity? ,I don't know,?I have nothing to measure against.he walks past everything now calmly and nicely and mostly doesn't get any reward except forward progress ( occasionally he will get given something just for nice loose lead walking )A big flash point came with Dexter realising the joys of the cat chase,we got so we couldn't walk past various houses ( including my next door neighbours) without being on 2 legs,dreadful...roast chicken came back out with us again and got me a really strong ,reliable 'Look at Me' and now when we walk past these houses,we don't look a mess and he looks at me almost automatically ......but he doesn't get roast chicken,he might get a piece of kibble but not always....so I think I've trained him not bribed him?Lunging at other dogs on the lead is our lingering problem.....I think I'm making progress with it but it's slow but that's ok with me,I can control the situation (mostly) by being able to understand his body language and judging distance and value of treats.....roast chicken and look at me will get me past another dog at close quarters, .......when Dexter gets this I will reduce the value of his rewards and I'm confident one day we will get past these dogs that interest him nicely without a high value treat.My way probably isn't right for everyone but it's worked for us and it's fine by me for training my first pet dog.....we are managing situations safely in which I haven't got any experience to draw on .
I also ALWAYS give Dexter something when he recalls to his whistle and I'm not ashamed to say that ;D ;D am I bribing him?you tell me...he always comes back and I'm delighted by that and proud of my lovely yellow boy so he gets a treat ;D ;D ;D not always roast chicken though ;D ;D ;D ;D

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

I always reward a good recall and I always reward a spontaneous return to me during off lead time (which means I get a lot of these offered freely). Everything else I reward at a pretty high rate too. It wouldn't be practical for everyone but I am happy to carry food treats (mix of high and lower value) with me whenever I have my dog. You never know when you will have the chance to reinforce something really great

If the behaviour is cued or spontaneously offered (not lured) and the food is given after the behaviour is performed then it's a reward, not a bribe.

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

Sounds great to me Angela, and I agree what works for one owner and their dog might not work for another, one size does not fit all.

I do the same as Rachael and have a variety of treats in my pockets, kibble = good, Fish4Dogs or similar = medium, sausage, pilchards, cheese etc. = excellent. I always treat for a spontaneous return or walk to heel which Hattie does a lot, she's not silly ;D and I don't see that as a bribe just really good behaviour. I have been very glad on a few occasions to have a high value treat in my pocket for a recall from game x

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

Angela, you are doing a great job with Dexter, far better than I am doing with dog number 8! Well, dog number 8 is pretty good, it is dog number 7 who gives me some problems; I am still learning how to train ;D

 

Re: Feeling defensive about Murphys pulling on the lead!

At home Lola is lovely and calm and her training really shows, but when we go my mum's and sees my mum's Jack Russell and my brothers two labs (one of which is her mummy) that is gone and she turns into a bouncy barrel of giddiness ;D

Your dog you know him best.