First time breeding - yes or no?

As I've said before, OH and I are SERIOUSLY thinking about breeding a litter of puppies from Poppy, either next year or the year after. I have a good conscience about breeding from her from a health point of view, because the rules are so strict within the Deutsche Retriever Club, and there'll still be a load of health tests to go through before we get the go-ahead. Here are the pluses and minuses I'm weighing up at the moment:

Plus side:

She's a lovely, friendly, well-mannered dog; good with other animals and children.
She's a TREMENDOUS worker - keen, obedient, intelligent, tenacious. She doesn't whine or fidget in the waiting zone.
She has a good pedigree, and is doing well in working tests here.
We have the space, and since OH works from home, someone to be there all the time.
Her health is good, and the health tests so far (hips and elbows) are excellent.
I'm quite prepared to make a loss financially on this.
We would keep one of the puppies.
I've always wanted to breed a litter.

The negatives:

She's a bit small and pointy-nosed. I'm not sure what the results will be when she is judged for conformation to the breed standards.
She is a sensitive little soul. Her puppies may have the same temperament.
I worry about the dangers of the birth for her. :-[
I worry about whether the puppies would end up in the right homes. Will they be worked, and treated right?
What would happen if we couldn't sell all the puppies?

Any words of advice? Don't feel you have to be nice to me - I am really interested in any feedback, whether you think it is a good idea or not, and why, especially from any of you who have bred before. But also from those who have never bred a litter of puppies, even if you think it is morally wrong to breed dogs - it's all helpful to me in weighing up.

 

Re: First time breeding - yes or no?

The reason I wouldn't breed dogs is that I would be so worried about the pups' futures. Even the best sounding homes can turn out to be dreadful. I suppose if I really, really, really wanted to, then I would, but I don't really want to, so I wouldn't

 

Re: First time breeding - yes or no?

Oooohhh exciting ;D

Obviously no experience here but Riley came from first time breeders who wanted a pup from their lovely girl and some of this might help.....

Six of their eight pups went to family and friends who were pretty committed in advance of breeding. The breeders were the parents of a colleague at work and we took the seventh and another friend of a friend took the eighth but they were nearly resigned to keeping an extra yellow boy. They didn't advertise the litter at all.

They did do all the recommended health tests at the time and chose a well known stud dog with good test results. I think choosing a good stud dog would have helped them find homes for the puppies if they had needed/wanted to.

Based on the fact that our trainer knows Rileys sire really well I would say Riley is probably more like his mother than father in temperament and drive. Anecdotal evidence from our trainer seems to suggest some stud dogs seem to throw quite distinctive puppies whereas others less so. In future I will be much more interested in the capabilities of the mother than I was for Riley, having said that Riley's mum was a lovely dog who cared well for her puppies, a nice family pet who went shooting with her owner and that's kind of what we've got so I'm in no way disappointed.

 

Re: First time breeding - yes or no?

First of all i never bred myself BUT since we(my wife and I) got our boy Odin we got seriously involved in a lot of events, trainings, meetings etc carried out by the ÖRC(Österreichischer Retriever Club) where we got in touch with many experienced dog owners, trainers and also breeders.
I talked to a breeder last weekend who is also thinking about breeding from her 2 year old bitch in near future(shes already had 5 litters from 2 of her other bitches so i consider her quite experienced) and her negatives almost matched your list(Apart from your size and pointy nose worries )

My thoughts on your negatives:
1. "Small and pointy nose" i don't know the regulations of the DRC but I'm almoust shure that you can make up miner variations from the breed standarts with good results in working test, field trials etc in Austria and Switzerland so maybe this is also possible in Germany. With the "right" stud dog, maybe a big guy with a massive head i guess you will have wonderful puppies.
2. sensitive little soul. I don't know if that is really passed from generation to generation. When i look at Odin's mom she is really sensitive too but Odin and most of his littermates (don't know all of them) are the absolute opposite. So i wouldn't really worry about that too much.
3. Danger of birth. Well it's true you cant exclude complications and pregnancy and giving birth will always be a bit of a risk. On the other hand veterinary medicin has made big steps in the last decades.
4. will the puppies be treated right. That's the biggest issue of all breeders i met in the last 2 years(including the breeder we got Odin from). When we first met our breeder we've been cross examined like serial killers ;D ;D(what do you do for a living, what are your hobbies, are you familiar with dogs ..... ;D ;D). The central statement of all these breeders is that they try to avoid giving their puppies to the wrong people by meeting them on a regular basis(we drove to our breeder every week from the day the puppies were 2 weeks old an we were aloud to see them) to be able to take measure of the potential buyers and also have the guts to say no to people you don't fully trust.
5. What would happen if you couldn't sell them all? Then you'll have to keep them all


I'd say if your heart tells you to do it then go for it. I don't feel your running into this blue eyed and judging from your comments in this forum you look like a responsible and caring person to me. I got no doubt you and you OH are able do to take care for a litter.

 

Re: First time breeding - yes or no?

Hi, Sounds like you are being very sensible and responsible. Could you vet the buyers ? You dont hve to sell to anyone, trust your instincts. A friend has a small girl lab, and didnt want to breed from her, as she might end up having a ceasarian, Im sure your dog will be fine, size dosent mean a ceasarian Im sure, but maybe just consider it could happen, and that you might have the cost. Your very brave, but what a wonderful thing to do, you will be bringing healthy happy pups into the world XX

 

Re: First time breeding - yes or no?

My husband has this principle: Anyone who wants to be a politician is almost certainly unsuitable to be one.

I think the same thing works with dog breeding: Anyone who isn't overawed and scared rigid by the pitfalls and possible consequences shouldn't be allowed to do it! By this principle, you've just proved yourself perfectly qualified

It is terrifying, but I think most of us would agree that Poppy is exactly the sort of Lab we'd like to see more of, and she's doing a great job raising her profile with the working tests etc so I would imagine people your way would be queuing up for pups. Although they'd have to fight off the Forum members first ;D ;D

 

Re: First time breeding - yes or no?

[quote author=Karen link=topic=6270.msg82486#msg82486 date=1401198530]
As I've said before, OH and I are SERIOUSLY thinking about breeding a litter of puppies from Poppy, either next year or the year after. I have a good conscience about breeding from her from a health point of view, because the rules are so strict within the Deutsche Retriever Club, and there'll still be a load of health tests to go through before we get the go-ahead. Here are the pluses and minuses I'm weighing up at the moment:

Plus side: (omitted for brevity)

The negatives:

She's a bit small and pointy-nosed. I'm not sure what the results will be when she is judged for conformation to the breed standards.
She is a sensitive little soul. Her puppies may have the same temperament.
I worry about the dangers of the birth for her. :-[
I worry about whether the puppies would end up in the right homes. Will they be worked, and treated right?
What would happen if we couldn't sell all the puppies?

Any words of advice? Don't feel you have to be nice to me - I am really interested in any feedback, whether you think it is a good idea or not, and why, especially from any of you who have bred before. But also from those who have never bred a litter of puppies, even if you think it is morally wrong to breed dogs - it's all helpful to me in weighing up.
[/quote]

My thoughts on the above are that she is indeed a bit small and a bit pointy nosed but you aren't breeding her puppies for the type of people who are over concerned about conformation to breed standards, they want a dog that will work and work hard.

The sensitivity i totally understand and i would say that they probably would have the same temperament. mine and yours are very similar temperament wise and have the same background but aren't bred exactly the same. Soemtimes the sensitivity is a bit much for me but now i understand it better i would prefer to have a dog like poppy than a dog who is very very social. honey's sociability has caused me more problems than eevee's sensitivity.

with regard to homes this is always a concern. the other problem is in the gun dog world they get moved on quite a bit over here. i don't know whether it's the same in Germany. if you couldn't sell them all, there is the potential that you could keep more than one and sell part trained later when you've decided which you'd like to keep. the main problem over here appears to be being left with the dogs rather than the bitches. if you get a heavy dog litter that could be difficult for you to sell. it could of course be totally different in Germany.

Eevee's breeder got left with two dog pups from a little of FTCH to FTW. Another breeder with beautiful dogs got left with two dog pups and i would have expected her to normally have a waiting list 6 miles long.

If i"m honest i would worry about the dangers of birth too. i have a friend who breeds a lot. in the time i've known her she's had four of five litters. i've never heard of a problem with the bitch at any point. one of her pups died due to cleft pallet and she put a lot of time and effort in keeping that pup going for it to have to be put to sleep later. she's never struggled to sell her dogs but hers are cockers.

one of the other problem that she has had and struggles with is the vetting of new homes. she had one pup go to a home that seemed like it would be perfect but in the end they sent the pup back after a week saying that it was straying into next door's garden and she couldn't get anything done round it. in other words, really not the best home. she has had to learn to say no to people who just aren't 'right'. she spends a lot of time with the new owners and keeps in touch. i think this is all you can do.

if you do open a waiting list, i'd respectfully request that you remember me as your friend who rather adores snipey faced dark yellow labradors and has a hole in her heart big enough for another one (or 6). i have a car and i can drive to Germany.

 

Re: First time breeding - yes or no?

i am sure you will make the right decision, poppy is a beautiful girl i am sure she would produce some beautiful pups
i would be very concerned about how she would cope with the birth
how would you choose owners for the pups ?
like my self being a first time dog owner always having a bad fear of dogs, if i would of been the breeder i think i would have said NO sorry i don't think you are right for one of our pups,
the breeder was aware i had a massive fear of dogs, `
so how would you decide who would be a good owner ?
it turned out i am a fantastic mum to jasper,
i wish you all the luck

 

Re: First time breeding - yes or no?

My two worries would be the safety of the bitch at birth and then finding good homes for the pups, really good homes . Concerning the latter , as you go to gundog training with Poppy, could you maybe put out feelers to see what interest there may be if you were to go ahead ? That, at least may give you an indication of the future for the pups .
Regarding the birth itself , a friend of mine has a JRT who had her second and last litter three weeks ago , the bitch did get into difficulties as the first puppy was laying transverse, but fortunately, my friend recognised the problem and got her girl to the Vet immediately for a CS , all ended well . I would advise you to get a book called The book of the Bitch , it may help you to decided Karen , its an excellent informer of all things bitch orientated including pregnancy and birth .
As for Poppys sensitivity , Sam is the same and I tend to think its no bad thing to be honest , lots of working bred dogs are sensitive souls .
I know that whatever decision you make will be an informed one Karen , and wish you luck x

 

Re: First time breeding - yes or no?

I think that Poppy is a suitable dog to breed from and you would be an excellent breeder who would do everything right (that goes without saying).

Given that those boxes are ticked, the challenges are all the emotional ones - the difficulty of the puppy selling process. You can screen people in detail, but you can only really hope for the best and most new owners won't keep in touch. They won't understand how much you've put into it and how attached you've become to the pups.

However, there are fabulous homes and great people out there whose lives will be enriched by sharing it with a pup - those people need responsible breeders who have good dogs and are willing to take the emotional risk of producing a litter. On the other hand, Labradors aren't an endangered breed and there are plenty of litters out there already.

How badly do you want a puppy from Poppy, and how much would you regret not having one? That'd be a big factor for me.

In choosing a stud dog go for one that conforms well to the breed standard. A good, moderate dog. Don't choose 'exaggerated' features to 'balance' areas where Poppy might be stronger. Genes don't work that way.

 

Re: First time breeding - yes or no?

I think you will make your own decision and it will be the right one . There are a lot of risks involved, but also so much happiness that can come from breeding Poppy. I wish the breeder I brought from was as thoughtful as you! We met her once, she never really asked us any questions! Nearly all her other dogs had been for a local police force so her nurturing was not there at all!

 

Re: First time breeding - yes or no?

I've nothing really to add Karen because I know that you will only move forward if you are 100% sure and I know absolutely nothing and never will about deciding on and preparing for a litter of puppies ;D what I would say is you and your OH would make a great team,you are both committed to Poppy's care and training and I think that is very important.It is a huge decision and will be a massive time,energy and emotional commitment so I think it's vital to have the support of the other people who will be involved and you have that in abundance.
In a parallel universe and I was making this decision,my 2 biggest worries would be about the birth and then finding good homes for the litter.....I'd want to know that if the owners could not cope with the pup that they would come back to me first and foremost,so then I would be putting myself in the situation where I was prepared and able to take a dog (s) back.......in my head ,writing this to you now hypothetically I would do so without a doubt as I'd feel morally bound to look after that dog.... but the practical issues of that could be very challenging.
If you were to breed from Poppy,I know you would have a long waiting list,you've already had interest at some of her tests that will increase over time as she progresses and she becomes more well known.
I've said this before...Poppy's puppies in the world,that would be a thing to behold for sure

 

Re: First time breeding - yes or no?

I think you should talk to the breeder of your bitch. After all, you bought her from that breeder so you must have been attracted to the breeding line. Also, consider the best dog for the role. Maybe the pointy nose can be avoided through selection of the dog. (?)
Your breeder must have a valuable opinion.
Also, perhaps you should have all of the other health tests before you decide.
My biggest worry after health, would be getting the right buyers.

 

Re: First time breeding - yes or no?

[quote author=Jane Martin link=topic=6270.msg82587#msg82587 date=1401219356]
Maybe the pointy nose can be avoided through selection of the dog.
[/quote]

Ooh hang on here. I rather like pointy faced doggies. ;D

http://www.k9data.com/pedigree.asp?ID=483102

Whilst perhaps not type-y if a show bred lab is type-y, the above is what i rather like a labrador to look like and i know i'm not alone. he and poppy share a good few lines (as indeed does our Eevee dog).

edited because it sounded argumentative which is absolutely not how i meant it to sound. hopefully a wink will help.

 

Re: First time breeding - yes or no?

How exciting 8)

I think you are doing the most important thing now - thinking about it, in depth, and well in advance rather than doing it on the spur of the moment. What's that saying ... 'Act in haste, repent at leisure'? As long as you give it due consideration then whatever you choose to do will be the 'right' answer.

Like Lynne, we had never owned a dog before we got Harvey so please give people like us a chance when reviewing potential purchasers.

PS: We have a friend who breeds flat-coated retrievers (and who put us in touch with Harvey's breeder) and she asks all of her buyers to sign contracts. Included within the contract is a stipulation that if they decide that they have made the wrong decision then they must return the dog to her - no passing it on to friends, selling it down the pub, or taking it to a shelter.

 

Re: First time breeding - yes or no?

I think you have one good reason for breeding from Poppy:

[quote author=Karen link=topic=6270.msg82486#msg82486 date=1401198530]
I've always wanted to breed a litter.
[/quote]

I don't think it's a bad reason!

I think all your other positives are hygiene factors - if she weren't a good dog, healthy, you didn't have time etc. people would be saying "definitely not".

I think you also have only one significant worry:

[quote author=Karen link=topic=6270.msg82486#msg82486 date=1401198530]
What would happen if we couldn't sell all the puppies?
[/quote]

So, if you are really honest about your chances of selling the puppies, and then are still confident of finding them good homes, I'd say go for it.

 

Re: First time breeding - yes or no?

Sorry HD :-\ I was just reflecting the original point ( :) about pointy noses. I love ALL kindsa noses

 

Re: First time breeding - yes or no?

Oh no please don't apologise i was just being silly - i was aware i sounded cross but honestly couldn't have been further from the truth. i just have a thing for them small and pointy. 8)

 

Re: First time breeding - yes or no?

Many thanks everyone for your replies. It's really helpful to me in our deliberations!

Christoph - Seems Germany and Austria are similar in many ways regarding breeding. In order to get permission to breed from your dog (under the umbrella of the DRC) you have to score 'excellent' or 'very good' on conformity to breed standard. If your dog only scores a 'good', then you can still get a license to breed IF you can show good results in working tests or hunting examinations. Good point.

Sarah (HD) - I like your suggestion regarding unsold puppies of possibly keeping one and selling him/her later partly trained.

Kate - there has been interest expressed from friends and acquaintances already, so that's very good. Also, labradors are very popular in Germany, but there are not very many GOOD breeders, and there is a smaller gene pool than in the UK. People spend a LOT of money on well-bred puppies, and travel far to get them. So I think we could reasonably expect to have lots of interested buyers. I do indeed have 'The Book of the Bitch', and find it very informative and useful.

Lynne and Uncle Bob - thank you for your reminders that first time dog owners can be responsible and provide caring, loving homes!!!

Jane - we are in contact with the breeders of both the father and the mother. The mother has had two litters, both without any problems. Both times the breeder sold all the puppies without having to advertise them. The father is very popular as a stud dog, and has been accepted as a stud dog in Germany now, which will help too I think.

Uncle Bob - I really like the idea of a sales contract, stipulating that if someone cannot keep a puppy, that it would be returned to me. Unenforceable in reality, I suppose, but it would feel good at least. I know that purchase contracts with clauses like that are fairly normal over here, so it would be easy to insist on.

Oh - I did think of one more negative point regarding breeding from Poppy - and that is that it would mean I couldn't work her for quite some time. But then afterwards I'd have a little mini-Poppy to train, too!!! ;D

Thank you very much everyone for your input. I do appreciate it.

 

Re: First time breeding - yes or no?

[quote author=Karen link=topic=6270.msg82812#msg82812 date=1401283656]


Christoph - Seems Germany and Austria are similar in many ways regarding breeding. In order to get permission to breed from your dog (under the umbrella of the DRC) you have to score 'excellent' or 'very good' on conformity to breed standard. If your dog only scores a 'good', then you can still get a license to breed IF you can show good results in working tests or hunting examinations. Good point.

[/quote]

Yeah i think the stipulations are more or less the same in Austria and Germany. I just read that if you want to breed from a bitch that got "only" "good" score youre only allowed to breed with a male that got scored at least "very good" or "excellent" no matter how good your results at WTs or FT are.