Re: Follow up article from Slimdoggy [quote author=Merla link=topic=4493.msg55263#msg55263 date=1392795380] Worth clarifying in case there is confusion, that the Westminster dog show is to the USA as Crufts is to the UK. [/quote] LOL, thanks for that - must say I knew that fact in the back of my brain...but the whole 'Palace of Westminster' thing confused the front of my brain Must say we don't see these massive dogs winning in Aust. This was the number 1 winning Labrador in Australia last year (from Australia's top kennel https://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=12931 Would be a little thinner in my house but not too over-the-top I think.
Re: Follow up article from Slimdoggy [quote author=Stacia link=topic=4493.msg55272#msg55272 date=1392803191] I remember meeting a lovely, lively, slim Lab a few times when dog walking, a few months elapsed and there was this fat dog waddling along. I asked the owner what had happened, she said that the breeder wanted her to show the dog and so he should be much fatter and to feed him up. I wasn't the only person to find this disturbing. [/quote] An unfortunate example. But not a reason, of course, to revert back to a sweeping stereotyping that all show labs are fat...
Re: Follow up article from Slimdoggy I'm all for avoiding stereotypes. But, I have to say that every honest breeder I know that works and shows their Labradors, will tell you they need to put weight on their dogs to win in the ring (bizarrely, they call this weight 'condition'). Whilst I have not done a survey, I suspect that this is the case throughout the UK. This suggests that the breed standard is being interpreted in the show ring, in a way that is not related to a Labrador's true working physique and optimum health. I think this is where the 'fat show dog' stereotype comes from. This practice of adding weight on our canine athletes in order to win in the show ring, makes no sense to me at all. I find it disheartening to say the least.
Re: Follow up article from Slimdoggy Very strange. We do the opposite for humans, and expect our models to be incredibly thin. What is it with our concept of beauty? I don't understand.
Re: Follow up article from Slimdoggy [quote author=editor link=topic=4493.msg55291#msg55291 date=1392808807] This practice of adding weight on our canine athletes in order to win in the show ring, makes no sense to me at all. I find it disheartening to say the least. [/quote] Yes, indeed. Must say that I have read similar comments on a working Lab breeders' website (e.g. need to add 5kg to a dog in working condition to put it in the ring and have a hope of the judge looking at it).
Re: Follow up article from Slimdoggy [quote author=editor link=topic=4493.msg55291#msg55291 date=1392808807] Whilst I have not done a survey, I suspect that this is the case throughout the UK. This suggests that the breed standard is being interpreted in the show ring, in a way that is not related to a Labrador's true working physique and optimum health. I think this is where the 'fat show dog' stereotype comes from. [/quote] No, there doesn’t seem to be a good survey or bank of evidence available – at least not that I can find. In the absence of that, it’s good to hear a range of views and opinions. There are always 2 sides to a story. What seems to be missing from this debate (at least here, in a working dog focussed forum) is a balanced view from winning show breeders and/or judges (and by that I don’t mean “all field Labradors look like ugly greyhounds” biased nonsense). Maybe those honest breeders of show Labradors could be persuaded to write a guest article for the Labrador site giving their take on the debate?
Re: Follow up article from Slimdoggy [quote author=JulieT link=topic=4493.msg55492#msg55492 date=1392850217] Maybe those honest breeders of show Labradors could be persuaded to write a guest article for the Labrador site giving their take on the debate? [/quote] That would be really informative
Re: Follow up article from Slimdoggy This thread is actually getting quite complicated! I really want to address Julie’s concerns because I think they are important. But first I want to try and clarify the issues here and make sure we are all on the same page As I see it, the slimdoggy articles, and the subsequent discussion, both here, and on our FB page, have raised several important questions. 1 Has the conformation of Labradors changed over the years? 2. If so, how have they change, especially with regard to body composition and is this a good/bad/indifferent thing? 3. Is the slimdoggy article balanced? 4. Is the Labrador Site presenting a balanced view of the issues surrounding Labrador conformation. I think it would be quite hard to get a totally balanced view, either from a Field Trial winning breeder/judge or a show winning breeder or judge. Simply because they have so much at stake, and have invested so much in the ‘winning formula’ To get a really balanced article, I think you would need to interview people from each team as it were, and report back objectively on their views and concerns. I think that would be quite an interesting exercise.. I’d really like to address people’s concerns here, so some feedback would be great, because the issue raises a whole shedload of questions. Not least the question of what exactly we are debating Is it that you feel we have not established whether or not show dogs are carrying extra fat? Are we agreed that show breeders add body fat to their dogs in order to win? Or do we need more confirmation of this? Are we agreed that too much body fat is a bad thing? And if so, how much is too much? Is this a question of aesthetics? Or health? Was the slimdoggy article balanced? Should it have looked at the way working lines have diverged from the breed standard too? Could the size of the Westminster dog be explained by ‘spring of rib’ or heavy coat? And if so, is this a good thing? Last but not least, are we doing a good job here of representing the issues and providing a forum for friendly debate? This is very important to me. One of my aims for The Labrador Site is to provide objective and evidence based information for Labrador owners. Not biased or ‘working focused’ views. Despite my involvement with working dogs, I see no virtues in further dividing the two communities, on the contrary, I would like to see working bred labradors with a more traditional conformation - not a view that is widely supported within the field trial community. So, as balance and objectivity are very important to me, I especially need your feedback on this one.
Re: Follow up article from Slimdoggy I value hugely the balanced and evidence based debate on this forum – I honestly don’t think there is another place like it. The slimdoggy article though, for me, wasn’t balanced or evidence based - from the title, through the assertion the article wasn’t looking at overweight show dogs, to the conclusion that pet obesity could be firmly laid at the door of Labrador show judges. I don’t have a particular problem with this conclusion as a notion – if it is properly supported. We could start with a narrow question of "this apparently overweight dog won a prestigious show prize - why?" (Rather than the statement "when did overweight labs become the new normal"). The winning dog was Epoch's Moccasin Joe. We could start by having a closer look, more than just a single photo. The full judging is here: http://www.westminsterkennelclub.org/videos/Breed Judging/2014/Sporting/pid:m6QTTNtx9acW Lots of close ups of Grizz here: http://www.epochlabradors.net/grizz/ Along with his health certificates: http://www.epochlabradors.net/files/ So, are we looking at a very different type of Labrador from an average field lab? Absolutely, these dogs are very, very, different (whether that is a good, bad, or neutral, thing is a separate question from whether they are overweight). Are they very overweight? They look to be (although not to the extent of the single picture in the Slimdoggy article, and from the close ups of Grizz the show breeder’s argument that the full coat add a lot does seem to have some merit). Do the breeders and judges think these dogs are overweight? Or do they have a different take on things, or a different view of what the ideal weight should be? I really find it hard to assume that the judges are thinking “perfect, a really fat one there, I’ll give him first place”. Or are they? Really? Why? So this is where I stall, and wonder whether we have the full picture or need to hear the other side. Grizz’s owner is called Cindy and has her contact details on Grizz's website – I wonder if she would respond if I emailed her (or maybe she is overloaded with emails about Grizz already...).
Re: Follow up article from Slimdoggy I've just read the article I'm a bit behind on this and I haven't chance to read all the posts. Bringing this back to basics though the chocolate lab in the picture looks overweight. It's panting like overweight dogs do and has the appearance of not being at its healthiest. Obviously as Julie has pointed out my opinion is based on that single photo. However I wouldn't want my Labrador to look like that in any photo. Show bred labs who are stockier etc should still look healthy like they can still behave like a lab not like the image people who don't know have of Labradors ie don't need much exercise, calm, sleep a lot and should be fat. We all know that's not what Labradors are like.
Re: Follow up article from Slimdoggy [quote author=Jen link=topic=4493.msg55657#msg55657 date=1392902492] Bringing this back to basics though the chocolate lab in the picture looks overweight. It's panting like overweight dogs do and has the appearance of not being at its healthiest. [/quote] I officially give up!
Re: Follow up article from Slimdoggy You can only try - it might be very interesting, or it might start World War III I'll have a go It looks overweight to me too, but it is just possible that the proportions of this dog and his coat are playing a part - I'll put a post up on that in a moment. I disagree with this. All dogs pant. I don't think we can tell from a photograph, whether or not the dog is panting due to health issues, or simply because he has been exercising or sitting in the sun. So I think this is probably an irrelevant observation
Re: Follow up article from Slimdoggy [quote author=editor link=topic=4493.msg55689#msg55689 date=1392905710] or it might start World War III [/quote] Hmm...yes, good point!
Re: Follow up article from Slimdoggy Sorry Julie I didn't have time to read the articles you'd found but I will and i hevent read the thread thoroughly so I probably shouldn't have posted and put my foot right in it. I totally get your point that we need all the facts and the slimdoggy article didn't give them. I have looked at the other photos you've found and to me he looks heavy. He may not be over weight it probably is his body shape but it does back the view that Labradors should be heavy. I had a discussion with a vet about what a lab should look like ie not fat. He had just taken ownership of his sons lab. He'd told his son the dog needed to go on a diet and have more exercise. His son asked why ?labradors should be fat. !!! That was a vets son. Ok only one example but many people have asked me if my dogs and my old dog are labradors because they are slim they dont think they are fat enough to be Labradors. My concern would be if heavy set Labradors are the breed standard (I'll stop saying fat because they probably aren't) some pet Labrador owners will think its ok that there lab is fat because that's what the breed standard looks like. I don't care whether a dog is from a working line or a show line. I don't agree with any breed of dog being altered to look a certain way and so many have been with terrible consequences. Show labs have been altered to look stocky etc working labs are bred smaller and slimmer. There isn't much that can be done. What I do know is the original purpose of a Labrador and in my opinion a Labrador whether show or working should look like its fit for purpose. PS. Pippa I agree with panting being an irrelevent observation as the conditions the dog is in aren't known. I pointed it out because I was describing the image the photo portrays. Rightly or wrongly. The dog I have no doubt is healthy, just of stocky proportions not overweight etc but the photo suggests otherwise. If the photo was seen out of context wouldn't most people think it looked over weight?
Re: Follow up article from Slimdoggy [quote author=Jen link=topic=4493.msg55702#msg55702 date=1392906731] My concern would be if heavy set Labradors are the breed standard (I'll stop saying fat because they probably aren't) some pet Labrador owners will think its ok that there lab is fat because that's what the breed standard looks like. I don't care whether a dog is from a working line or a show line. I don't agree with any breed of dog being altered to look a certain way and so many have been with terrible consequences. [/quote] You might find this article interesting - he has a view on both of the points above: http://retrieverman.net/2014/02/15/why-fat-labradors-in-dog-shows-are-low-hanging-fruit/
Re: Follow up article from Slimdoggy Good read, thanks for posting - I did giggle at 'labrabeef' As an aside ... surely the American Cocker Spaniel must be the most removed from usable gundog breed? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Cocker_Spaniel
Re: Follow up article from Slimdoggy Good link, Scottie is always worth reading I disagree in one respect. Although show dogs are a tiny minority, I think they have influence. Obesity is a big problem in dogs generally. My own view is that dog shows should leave us in no doubt that slim dogs are the goal, by awarding prizes to slim dogs.
Re: Follow up article from Slimdoggy Thanks Julie good article. Pippa you've managed to put in I one sentence whet I was trying to get across in all that waffle. Probably why your a successful author and I'm not. The kennel club and dog shows should be encouraging slim dogs. Showing people who don't know any different a healthy looking conformation to compare their dog too.
