Frustrated reaction - going crazy

Discussion in 'Behavioural science and dog training philosophy' started by Porter, Jan 2, 2018.

  1. Porter

    Porter Registered Users

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    I need your help. We just adopted Porter a couple of months ago. He is now 10 months old. Playful and energetic likes most young lab. The biggest challenge is that, out of no where, if could be at the beginning of a walk, after sitting, he becomes nuts and start jumping on me, not like people seems to describe like the zoomies, running around like crazy. This, I could still live with it. But he jumps on my back, my legs, mouth opened. It hurts and he is so strong, more than once, he almost make me felt on the ground. It happens outside, most of the time on leash but sometimes in the backyard. I tried to observe to see what could trigger it but, it always seems with no reasons. Help me, please. We are in winter and I am well padded but I really don't know how I could survive this type of behavior with lighter cloths.
     
  2. drjs@5

    drjs@5 Registered Users

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  3. Porter

    Porter Registered Users

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    Thank you for the link, quite useful and reassuring to see that I am not alone. I just came back from outside and was served with the same treatment :( When he is on leash, sometime, I try to keep walking and pull on the leash so he can't keep jumping as he had to walk. I tried to turn my back but this hadn't been so successful either. I also consulted a specialist in dog behavior and he observed the same thing. He told me to consult a vet and have him on drug for hyperactivity. I'll try to put my foot on the lead but this is not always easy either. Any advice help for sure. So far, we love him but this behavior makes it very difficult and scary...
     
  4. Naya

    Naya Registered Users

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    Hi and welcome. He is in the adolescent stage and will go through stages that are very trying. There are lots of posts on her over the past few years about exactly the same behaviour as you are experiencing now. With consistency from yourself and maturity on his behalf it will get better. If you go on the search box and type in 'jumping' you should get quite a few threads up that will offer advice.
     
  5. selina27

    selina27 Registered Users

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    That doesn't seem to me to be a good way forward at all.
    Just as with all the other issues we may have with young Labs, we need to ignore the bad, manage what we can't ignore and reinforce the good.
    Believe me I know just how difficult it is to manage this type of behaviour, as I had a spell with Cassie when she was around 13/14 months.
    The thread @drjs is referring too is called '' Cassie stop mugging me log'', sorry I can't do links.
     
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  6. leejane

    leejane Mum to the Mooster

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    https://thelabradorforum.com/threads/cassies-stop-mugging-me-log.19783/page-5#post-310914

    Here it is :)
     
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  7. Porter

    Porter Registered Users

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    Thank you so much guys! It feels good to have found people who know and understand what I am going through. I must say that I find it heart breaking. You give so much to them, feel that you have a great relationship with them and then... you think, ''why are you doing this to me... :( '' I'm going through the thread like if I was reading a novel. I am getting dress now for a walk and see if I'll survive with my devil. I'll fix my avatar later on with a picture. He can look like an angel you know :). And again, thanks all Jac, Naya, Leejane and Selina for sharing all of this with me. It gives me hope!
     
  8. UncleBob

    UncleBob Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    It may be hard but you should try to take it as a compliment! Your dog is full of adolescent excitement and energy and doesn't know what to do with it so ... he is asking you! (I bet the behaviour is almost exclusively reserved for you - am I right?). Obviously he can't vocalise what he is feeling so he is trying to communicate it to you as best as he can. That's how I see it anyway ;)

    So, you need to do as Selina suggests - a mix of ignore, manage, and reinforce. Keep at it :)
     
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  9. selina27

    selina27 Registered Users

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    I get this completely, but it is like @UncleBob says it's a sort of compliment, but completely innappropriate of course!
    As with everything consistency is the key :)
     
  10. Porter

    Porter Registered Users

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    You are right, it is mostly with me. I follow your advice and it is a mix of everything. Yesterday was not too bad. I started a couple of ''fit'' and I ignore the first one basically, I kept my arm low and stiff so he couldn't really jump and he stopped pretty quickly. What I also did last week was to keep walking faster and faster, again, he didn't have much choice to follow. Yesterday, because I was in my driveway, I went back inside and took him to the bathroom for 15 second - this is what I call a Time out!
    I guess that what I found the most difficult is when it is completely unexpected, in my back. This is difficult then to put my foot on the lead.
    I'll keep on a log now when it happens and see if I can find a trend.
    And again, thanks to have taken the time to encourage me. It worths a lot!
     
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  11. Porter

    Porter Registered Users

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    Just came back from on of the worst 10 minutes walk :( He jumped on me after 30 seconds and then again... the next time was when I fell on the street (it is really cold and icy here) It is the second times it happens when I fall that he jumps on me. It is like when there are some sudden moves on my behalf, it excites him. I decided to come back due to the icy and slippery road and his behavior.

    Question for you guys: The first couple of weeks when we adopted Porter, he didn't show any signs of the type of behavior. It really started when we had a first trainer who came here. Porter was excited and the trainer showed us how to manage him. She basically kept holding him by collar. Porter kept sliding on the floor and she kept holding his collar. It lasted several minutes. She did it a couple of times. The next 3 days were quite bad after that. The trainer came back a week after and did the same thing, again, the following days were bad. Since we didn't like her approach, we stopped the training. My question is the following: is it possible that these incident trigger this type of behavior?
     
  12. selina27

    selina27 Registered Users

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    Hi @Porter sorry to read that it all went wrong for you, I imagine he feels you falling over is all part of the game. What country are you in? Can you find a behaviourist with good qualifications?
    I don't have the answer about the collar holding scenario, maybe @Oberon or @Jojo83 can help
     
  13. Jojo83

    Jojo83 Registered Users

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    Hi @Porter , just catching up on your thread and sorry to hear about your experience with your trainer. Holding the collar as shown to you by your trainer is not something I would have advocated, without even including the potential for bites from frustrated dogs. I prefer to train a settle which involves the lead being firmly placed under the foot while you are sitting to prevent the dog jumping around but still has some movement available. My 5 steps for training this is:-

    1. Make mug of coffee/tea
    2. Select reading material
    3. Sit on comfy chair
    4. Place dog lead under your foot (wrap around leg as well if you feel more secure that way)
    5. Relax, drink coffee/tea, read book, ignore dog

    The length of time to settle does vary between dogs but the vast majority decide to settle within 10 minutes as they simply aren't receiving any reinforcement for any other behaviour. Over a few sessions your dog will start to settle quicker until you can put a cue on.

    The only time I will normally suggest holding the collar is when training a recall where you take hold of the collar when your dog returns before rewarding for the recall as this helps prevents any reactivity to having collar held.

    Out and about try and lead Porter to a 'safe' spot and then stand on the lead. In cold frost/icy conditions it might help to have a couple of knots in the lead to prevent it slipping under your feet. The lead should be long enough for Porter to stand comfortably but not have enough to jump. Then just ignore him, which is hard I know but will gradually reduce the length of time of manic episode and they will gradually stop, you just need to keep the faith and be consistent.

    If Porter is jumping indoors train him to do an alternative behaviour such as paws on the floor or a sit and reward for the good behaviour and ignore the bad. If he is getting overly excited, jumping, grabbing another coping mechanism is to walk away from him into another room for 10 seconds or put him on the other side of a stair gate and ignore him. Dogs perform behaviours that are rewarding for them which is why positive reinforcement is such a powerful training tool, so to modify a behaviour we don't like but the dog finds rewarding we need to ask for a different behaviour that we can reward, which the dog will then find rewarding. Hope this helps a little, but feel free to send me a private message if you want to chat.

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    Thanks :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2018
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  14. Boogie

    Boogie Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    I agree entirely with @Jojo83 re: how to settle dogs - her 5 steps are exactly what we are taught with our GD pups.

    :)
     
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  15. snowbunny

    snowbunny Registered Users

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    If your dog doesn't like having his collar held (my most recent puppy didn't, either), then it's hugely valuable to teach a collar grab to be a good thing. There are times when we may have to grab a dog's collar to keep them safe, so training them that it's rewarding is worthwhile, especially with dogs who don't like it. You may also be in a situation where someone else grabs your dog by the collar; let's say, worst case, he's escaped onto a road and someone is trying to grab hold to save him. Or, it may be a completely innocuous thing someone does without thinking. If he has developed an aversion to it, or even if it takes him by surprise, he could react badly, so I'd always recommend this as something that should be in our training plans.

    The way I approached it was thinking about needing to grab and turn my dog away. I started off with a handful of treats in my right hand, I'd touch the collar with my left hand and immediately put my right hand down to feed. Over a few goes, I'd become more deliberate with my grab, always feeding as soon as I did it (ensuring grab > feed, so the food doesn't appear first and become a predictor of the grab). You need to really judge your dog with this and make sure you're not pushing on too quickly and causing him stress. You want him to start associating the grab with good things, not with negativity, so take it as slowly as your dog needs.
    Once your dog is happy and relaxed as you grab his collar, you can start adding in an about-turn. This is really valuable, as you may be in a situation where there's an oncoming threat you need to get him away from. Again, start with the handful of treats, grab the collar and bring your treat hand down to his face, but lure him round a step of the arc before feeding him. Again, progress over a few goes/sessions until you can grab his collar and turn a full 180 degrees with him following the collar pressure happily, rather than being dragged. You can then start introducing it into your walks so it happens when he's not expecting it. As with everything, you need to do it in more and more distracting situations so he learns to follow you, rather than resisting. When you make the exercise more difficult through distraction, take the process above back a few steps to make it achievable with absolutely no dragging.

    This is in addition to the above advice for teaching him to be calm and not jump up.

    Some arousal games might also help him; assuming you have taught him to drop a toy, play with him with it, then ask for the release and then a sit. As soon as he sits, give him the cue to grab the toy again. Then drop the toy and down. Again, when he lays down, release him back to the toy. This game is brilliant for working on him learning to control his arousal levels and to switch from high to low and back again instantly - and, importantly, to be able to listen to you when he's in high arousal. You should find it also helps to make the "low arousal" behaviours really snappy.
     
  16. Porter

    Porter Registered Users

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    I will definitely try the five steps and these other great advice.Thanks Jojo and Snowbunny.
    To answer Selina27, (sorry, I don't know how to past an extract of a post) I live in Canada, Quebec, North of Gatineau more precisely. So you probably guess now why my English is not always so great, I am francophone :).
    Hard for me to tell you how the last couple of days went as we spent them mostly indoor. Outdoor temperature reached here -40 Celsius so it make it quite hard to practice. The tantrums take place at 99% when Porter is outdoor, mainly with his lead.
     
  17. selina27

    selina27 Registered Users

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    There is nothing wrong with your English at all :) That wasn't my reason for asking :) I look forward to seeing some pictures of your area of Canada on the photo threads, in due course.
    I was going to say you could probably do the 5 steps outside -- but I guess not at-40C!
    Goodness, I can't begin to imagine, it's gone what we call in the UK "a bit nippy" and it's still above freezing!
    To do a quote you just highlight the section you want to use and a little "reply" box pops up.
    Porter looks lovely, keep going and keep posting :)
     
  18. Porter

    Porter Registered Users

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    I've also noticed that during the last couple of days, when I asked him to sit, he tries to jump on my hand. Usually, for this command, I move my forearm straight horizontal and my hand is facing the floor.
    And of course, only me get that treatment. I am trying to convince myself that it is a compliment (thanks to UncleBob!) Is it possible that he might feel that it is a way to intimidate me and thinks that it is easy to dominate me? He doesn't do it to my husband...
     
  19. UncleBob

    UncleBob Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    No, it has nothing to do with this. Dominance theory is out-dated thinking. Have a look here:
    https://www.thelabradorsite.com/dog-dominance/
    and here:
    http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/why-wont-dominance-die

    Just keep going with the suggestions that you've received (and feedback to us here, of course). Keep in mind that there is no instant fix - this will take time and patience. Good luck :)
     
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  20. Porter

    Porter Registered Users

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    It is getting worse and worse! I can hardly even get out of our drive way without him jumping on me, my back, my leg, my hands... Thanks to the weather, I need to wear thick gloves otherwise, I would be so bitten. My legs are bruised, I am discouraged and getting scared of him. This was supposed to be such a great adventure. Last night, he was lying down beside me while I was watching TV. He cuddles and can seem such as a nice and friendly dog. I am sad and despite the great suggestions you shared with me, these attacks are so bad that I honestly don't see the end of the tunnel.
     

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