Re: Getting attention at a distance I taught my mum's border collie to 'drop'. I couldn't believe how she just FLUNG herself to the ground! Totally different to a lab. Learnt it in one session flat. Of course, it makes sense. Working Labs have been bred for their prey drive - to keep their eyes on the bird; to be ready to run and pick a dead or wounded animal and bring it back as soon as possible. Stopping and sitting is not what they naturally do! A collie is like a hunting wolf; circling and constantly stalking the herd, ready to become immobile or drop at a moment to avoid detection. This trait has been used and bred for by humans to use as herding dogs.
Re: Getting attention at a distance [quote author=Lisa link=topic=3548.msg39600#msg39600 date=1386268755] but what's the point of training for it if you are never going to use it when you really need it, in a real life outdoor situation and your dog is going after something you don't want him to? [/quote] This is a very fair point - I was like this with my recall. I spent hours training it, and hours getting Charlie away from other dogs without using it. In the end, I used it and it worked. I guess it's a question of timing. Charlie is not reliable enough with his stop whistle in the absence of distractions yet for me to use it when he is distracted. Although, I used it tonight when he was doing a mad bum rum round the front room with a nicked duster and it worked (practical application of gundog skills again... ;D ;D ;D). [quote author=Jen link=topic=3548.msg39622#msg39622 date=1386277737] The problem is I have no means of getting my dog to stop at a distance at the moment! [/quote] Before I stopped being allowed to throw balls willy nilly, they did it for Charlie. I'd hold a ball up and he'd freeze. Then he would do anything if he thought I'd throw the ball. Sitting - no problem. So now all I need is a reward of the same value as a no sit fetch...haven't come up with one yet. :-\
Re: Getting attention at a distance [quote author=Jen link=topic=3548.msg39622#msg39622 date=1386277737] What made you change from border collie and have you noticed a difference in attitude and how they learn? The problem is I have no means of getting my dog to stop at a distance at the moment! I get what you mean though, at some point you have to use the stop and trust that it will work or at least test it. It's probably better to test before you need it. : I hope one day my dogs will do what yours did. I think perhaps I expect too much to soon. It's a hard one to learn. I need to practise patience. Jen [/quote] It's a bit of a long story but basically we inherited Simba from my son's ex-girlfriend. She had him as a puppy but as he got older she and her family couldn't cope with him. They went away for a month in June, I offered to puppy sit (although he was almost a year old at this point) and two weeks into the month we were informed that they would not take him back. So, presto! New dog! And I would have got a Border Collie if not for that, I am pretty sure. Anyhow....yes, there are definite differences. Border Collies are bred to focus on their handlers from long distances i.e. when herding sheep in a field, they have to be aware of the shepherd and his/her commands from a long ways away. So they are naturally more inclined to always watch their handlers, I think. They are also much more "sight" oriented rather than "scent" oriented. It has been a bit of a learning curve, to say the least, to understand the differences and learn what to expect of my Lab as opposed to my Collies...it's why I discovered this forum, to get some help! I guess the point of my story was that I didn't know I had a way to stop my dog from doing something until I tried it (out of panic, not thinking it would really work). With Simba, I have the same fears - he did not learn to come from this previous owners, in fact, he very much learned to ignore the spoken command, which is why I am now using the whistle (just starting the Total Recall, I'll keep you all posted...). It is interesting, however.....most of the time (99 %) Simba is on lead - I just don't trust him, yet. And at this time of year, it's not that easy to find off-leash areas to take him...the usual spots I would go in the summer are now knee deep in snow, not exactly easy for him or me to walk in. But thankfully, we have a dog park, which people are using, so the snow is being kept down enough that we can walk there. It is all fenced, so I can let him off lead and see what happens. As I said, he doesn't have a recall....yet....although he is definitely more responsive to a "come" than he was when we first got him. But what I DO have, is a "sit/stay". There have been a couple of times that I have used this in order to stop him from going over to another dog or from going WITH another dog, and to my surprise, it has worked! Like a charm! I hoping that this will translate fairly easily into the stop whistle when I get there in the program. Fingers crossed. He is definitely more relaxed and trusting of us now. Still lots to work on but I can see that he is willing to listen, now, which is a huge step forward. It is definitely good to do all the proofing and testing that you can before you actually need it in an emergency...but I guess that's what the others were saying about the "structured" walks.....always keeping the dog focussed on you so that when you need to, they will listen.
Re: Getting attention at a distance Simba is so lucky to have got you Lisa. I don't know how anybody can decide they don't want their dog anymore. It wouldn't matter how difficult mine were and sometimes it is difficult they are my dogs and always will be. Now you are a lab convert. We noa have a very good sit stay which didn't take long to train. That's why I decided now was the right time to work on stop whistle sort of an extension of sit stay. Our recall is not bad if no high distractions although I'm a wimp and haven't tried it out of a fenced area. : High distractions then no chance. That's a good tip Julie I might have a go waving a ball about although I still have to get them to look at me to see the ball!!! :
Re: Getting attention at a distance [quote author=Jen link=topic=3548.msg39658#msg39658 date=1386318694] That's a good tip Julie I might have a go waving a ball about although I still have to get them to look at me to see the ball!!! : [/quote] You could try a squeaky ball. It worked to break Rileys concentration when we were having recall challenges Some people don't like squeaky things in case they encourage chomping in a dog that's going to work so it depends what your long term plans are for your dog. I still use squeaky tennis balls and although Riley does chew them and make them squeak he doesn't chomp anything else. It is a risk though
Re: Getting attention at a distance [quote author=Jen link=topic=3548.msg39658#msg39658 date=1386318694] although I still have to get them to look at me to see the ball!!! : [/quote] If Charlie is really not listening I copy the gundog trainer (I don't know if this is the right thing to do or she was just driven to it by Charlie's level of selective deafness :). I raise my arms in the air and shout - really, really, REALLY loudly: yip-yip-yip-yip-yip-yip-yip-yip-yip-yip-yip-yip-yip-yip-yip-yip. It works. It also looks and sounds absolutely ridiculous on Wimbledon Common field. (But not as bad as the chicken in the crotch exercise.) A great incentive to keep working on the stop whistle.
Re: Getting attention at a distance oh that's true sometimes I use a bbbbbrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiipppppppppppp like the trainers at ours do to attract the dogs attention before they throw a dummy to make sure the dog marks the dummy falling but then sometimes I just go OI !!! ;D ;D ;D
Re: Getting attention at a distance Julie, you have the easiest dog in the world to teach the stop whistle, Charlie is obsessed with retrieving. If you can make him believe that sitting to the stop whistle = a ball or dummy flying through the air and a consequent retrieve then you will have cracked it!
Re: Getting attention at a distance [quote author=heidrun link=topic=3548.msg39676#msg39676 date=1386321269] Julie, you have the easiest dog in the world to teach the stop whistle, Charlie is obsessed with retrieving. If you can make him believe that sitting to the stop whistle = a ball or dummy flying through the air and a consequent retrieve then you will have cracked it! [/quote] I agree - it worked like a dream. The trouble is now (now we don't chase things without a command) he is not steady enough for me to throw the ball when he is at a distance from me. So he is a few metres away, I can get the ball out of my pocket and hold it up, he looks at me, I blow the stop whistle. Instant sit. But, then I can't throw the ball because he'd just run in. :-\ It's a real shame because it was working perfectly. I suppose once we crack the steadiness (if we ever do, I'm beginning to think I'll never have a steady dog). It'll work again.
Re: Getting attention at a distance Could you throw it behind you? Then you could stop him getting to it.....or just drop it and then walk towards him and send him for it?...... When we were doing a similar thing.....stop whistle with a retrieve as reward if Riley moved when the ball was thrown he was told "no" and I went and got the ball and we started all over again. If you put the ball behind you or next to you you should be able to get it before Charlie I think....
Re: Getting attention at a distance [quote author=bbrown link=topic=3548.msg39678#msg39678 date=1386321812] Could you throw it behind you? Then you could stop him getting to it.....or just drop it and then walk towards him and send him for it?...... [/quote] I am ashamed to admit we are not even that steady...I'd never stop him he would go passed me so fast, and even dropping it wouldn't work if he is not at my side. There. I have 'fessed up how little progress we have made. :-[ :-[ :-[ I will redouble my efforts - hopeless. Maybe a vid of what I'm doing might help. Maybe I'm doing something wrong.
Re: Getting attention at a distance When your dog is as keen as Charlie it's always going to be a challenge, persevere x
Re: Getting attention at a distance [quote author=JulieT link=topic=3548.msg39679#msg39679 date=1386321997] [quote author=bbrown link=topic=3548.msg39678#msg39678 date=1386321812] Could you throw it behind you? Then you could stop him getting to it.....or just drop it and then walk towards him and send him for it?...... [/quote] I am ashamed to admit we are not even that steady...I'd never stop him he would go passed me so fast, and even dropping it wouldn't work if he is not at my side. There. I have 'fessed up how little progress we have made. :-[ :-[ :-[ I will redouble my efforts - hopeless. Maybe a vid of what I'm doing might help. Maybe I'm doing something wrong. [/quote] Sorry, I didn't read your response properly - you mean really just drop it and pick it up if he runs. Yes, I could try. I might put it on a bit of elastic though, he'd run for it when I walked towards him when he knew he could get it before me.
Re: Getting attention at a distance Julie, my Caddie was the same when she was young. The hardest part of her training was to steady her up. Everything else was a doodle. But at that time it was far more important to me that she stopped to the stop whistle than being steady to thrown dummies. I did sort it in the end but that is another thread ...
Re: Getting attention at a distance [quote author=heidrun link=topic=3548.msg39683#msg39683 date=1386322317] Julie, my Caddie was the same when she was young. The hardest part of her training was to steady her up. Everything else was a doodle. But at that time it was far more important to me that she stopped to the stop whistle than being steady to thrown dummies. I did sort it in the end but that is another thread ... [/quote] Love to hear about Caddie being steady! I'll think about the order of stop whistle and steady then...it would be a bit difficult to give up now though, it's been hours and hours and hours...
Re: Getting attention at a distance Yip yip yip sounds a good idea and jumping up and down. I make a fool of myself on a regular basis. Although we are only in our garden when we train, because it's big I forget people could be walking passed at the bottom. Sometimes I've walked down singing !!!! that is not a good sound believe me : then realised people walking passed !!!! Squeaky ball good idea as well Barbara. All these good ideas one must work surely. ??? I think I must've missed your chicken in the crotch exercise Julie !!!!!!! As I said yesterday though we did have a bit of a break through. Still at heel but I walked on no problem 6 times in a row. Whether it will happen again today though ???
Re: Getting attention at a distance Yes that's it exactly When I was trying to improve Rileys retrieving I didn't worry about steadiness either. The same for the nervousness around shot. If we don't/didn't fix those things there was little point in Riley being steady. I know your gundog trainer has placed a lot of emphasis on it and it truly is important but you can harness his drive and enthusiasm to teach him a lot of things (and it's a great alternative to food)
Re: Getting attention at a distance I'll have a good think. I just tried to see whether I could drop the dummy and get back to him to send him for it. I can't, even in the dining room. Then I thought, I'll walk back to him with the dummy, then throw it and send - although the timing of the reward is getting a long time away from the stop whistle sit at this point. He hasn't seen his dummy outside for 11 days, and barely seen it inside. He legged it upstairs with it, took me ages to get it back. Better return to our bring back clicker for a while...
Re: Getting attention at a distance [quote author=Jen link=topic=3548.msg39686#msg39686 date=1386322530] I think I must've missed your chicken in the crotch exercise Julie !!!!!!! [/quote] That's probably best! [quote author=Jen link=topic=3548.msg39686#msg39686 date=1386322530] As I said yesterday though we did have a bit of a break through. Still at heel but I walked on no problem 6 times in a row. Whether it will happen again today though ??? [/quote] That sounds like good progress, good luck for today.
Re: Getting attention at a distance Steadiness is my major stumbling block with Sam , he is just so eager . He will retrieve all day long if allowed , will totally ignore other dogs when he is on a mission to seek, but getting him to sit steady is another kettle of fish :
